The dystopian world of software engineering interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#621

Post by z3t4 » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #388

whack wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are collectively living in an illusion of whacked up expectations. Yes, it's super hard to hire good people, but most of the time it's because "good enough" isn't good enough anymore, and while we may think our company is a 9 and we deserve 9s, we are probably more of a 4 based on what people are actually working on. You're essentially implying that companies like FAANG can get by just fine, even if they hired "…

Dear God, I wish companies were run like this. Everyone refers to these faceless "companies"...no, you are being hired by employees just like you who almost always overpay for staff. They overestimate their ability to assess talent, HR usually link their own salaries to the people they hire...it is a shitshow. Look at CEO pay, most CEOs are clueless. They are way overpaid. Google is a perfect example, that business i…

Actually most software business use that business model. Eg. buy low, sell high. The difference between market rates and wages are their profit.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#622

Post by efficax » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

amznthrowaway5 wrote: post #256

glofish wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting how negative your reaction is. Also how far off target all that anger is. I am not selecting for a tribe, I am selecting for a job. The questions are loaded, of course. Among the many duties, the jobs do require processing large files, sometimes with cut, Python or C. I want the candidate to use the most appropriate tool as needed. I'd rather not have people implement functionality that already exists in…

> The right answer will depend on the column separator. Proposing the UNIX cut if the file is CSV is not such a good answer, but for tab-separated files, it is just fine. If the file is CSV and they tell me about cut, my next question would be if that is a good universal solution for CSV files in general. TSV and CSV have the same limitations. A tab-separated file could still have tabs inside a field depending on the…

Seems like you're completely missing the point of the interview question which is to see how someone would approach a problem, investigate its requirements, propose a solution, examine its drawbacks and how they would take feedback on that solution and its possible advantages and disadvantages.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#623

Post by ghaff » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:20 PM UTC

_9vpl wrote: post #521

bobbytran wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made a career out of working for and with smaller companies. My paycheck is very good and I'm always learning new/different technologies. Most smaller companies dont have these sorts of interviews. Most of mine have been technical in nature and some involved take-home projects, which were then discussed. I've also avoided the dreaded non-compete clauses that FAANG employees need to sign and work on my own side-b…

Non-competes are unenforceable in California

Presumably he meant IP ownership or something along those lines.

To his other point, take homes have their own problems, especially for anything beyond the most trivial 2-3 task. That said, there are certainly many jobs where you want to see concrete evidence of ability. I'm not going to hire someone for a job that involves a lot of writing without seeing some writing samples. And if they don't have anything they can show me for confidentiality reasons, I'm going to ask them to produce something.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#624

Post by glofish » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:27 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #429

glofish wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sqlite answer - excellent, that is exactly what I am looking for, things people did, potential solutions let me understand the candidate's real background - not the buzzwords what is not well received is the judgmental tone, passing judgment about me for things you cannot possibly know, no need for that either, simple questions also irritate some, very important to weed those people out too, I expect you would fail t…

I expect you would fail the test because of the attitude How is this relevant? Now you're just taking cheap shots.

I don't get it, honestly.

I would not recommend a candidate, who, when asked if they could do this with cut|sort|head would reply something like:

heh, what a pathetic question, I bet your history is full of "man cut"

it is not the right answer, it is needlessly obnoxious and indicates a person that can barely bottle up their emotions and quickly gives in under pressure. Usually not a good match to any team - unless they also bring in something massively beneficial.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#625

Post by mikaraento » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

monoideism wrote: post #406

ampdepolymerase wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually pretty well known that the second way into FAANGs is through acquisition.

I've heard of at least some of the FAANGs do the typical interview process for acquisitions.

I can confirm this from personal experience (at least it was the case 10 years ago).

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#626

Post by hderms » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

jrempel wrote: post #108

allovernow wrote: post #11

In my admittedly limited experience, there's one way to avoid such nonsensical interviews - run away from bureaucracy. Seek smaller organizations (startups in particular) and if you're lucky enough to have a minimally cross-disciplinary background, you can seek out niche organizations where you'll interview with technical specialists who'll ask reasonable questions that are actually related to your work and your inte…

In my experience, startup interviews are even less personal and more leetcode based than FAANG. aka solve leetcode hard in 40m on a whiteboard

In my experience interviewing people for small companies, I learn towards problems that aren't particularly hard but that demonstrate basic engineering fundamentals. I do value questions that give some insight into the interviewee's thought processes, but it's not necessary to give them a leetcode style question to get there. Startups that try to emulate Google hiring process are pretty clearly shooting themselves in the foot. Thoughtlessly copying successful companies is one of the banes of our industry.

Some companies are solving problems which might demand a higher level of algorithmic rigor in the interview, but it's always worked out for me on the hiring side to consciously avoid Google style questions. I don't think I've given the thumbs up to any truly 'bad hires' for many years, and I've given the thumbs up to many.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#627

Post by khalilravanna » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #535

bradlys wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like small companies. You work harder and have a lot more impact. The compensation is good too. Leave. The grass is greener. What small company is regularly paying over $300k+/yr for senior software engineers and paying over $500k/yr for staff+? The only people I see leaving the big companies are those who already got their riches and/or bought real estate earlier. The rest of us are either tied to them or trying…

> the real estate market dictates you must earn that income to stick around the bay. Well, there's your problem right there. There are plenty of smaller tech hubs around the world.

Big +1. Leave the Bay Area. Heck, you could even get a Bay Area job that allows remote and then leave the Bay Area. I worked remote from ATX for 2 years for an SF startup and it was great!

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#628

Post by thrav » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:34 PM UTC

sigotirandolas wrote: post #617

It's funny that the other day I was reading about the door policies of some top-tier Berlin nightclubs and it seems that the underlying processes are similar. The bouncers there do a "door interview" designed to not only filter likely bottom of the barrel (too drunk/high, tourists) but you also need to know arbitrary and often unwritten codes (e.g. the name of the event, line-up, dress code, physical appearance) whic…

I’ve been to that club. The internet descriptions are overblown. When I got all up in my head and attempted to follow all of the advice, I got turned away. I felt like I was wearing a costume and trying to be someone I wasn’t, and that was probably obvious to them.

When I went back years later and just went as myself, my wife and I were immediately welcomed in without much questioning. For those wondering, this is not a club where being with a woman is necessarily advantageous, but I will certainly admit that it likely had an impact.

The biggest things I saw them looking to screen out, beyond drunk - high - obnoxious, were youth and naïveté. They seem to largely be aiming at people who know exactly what they’re getting into, and are relaxed about it + not overly attached to the outcome.

Just so you know exactly what I had on, and how much it flies in the face of some of the advice... on Friday: White t-shirt, jeans, baseball cap. Saturday: Grey Everlane pocket t-shirt, backwards baseball cap, Patagonia 5” running shorts, Off-white Adidas Marathon sneakers. I did learn to dress like you’re going to dance for hours in Friday night, and jeans got hot and shirt came off real quick, so I adjusted on Saturday.

Wife went more classic and wore black jean shorts, black tee with a ripped collar, black baseball cap, black adidas.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#629

Post by throwaway582 » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

pansa2 wrote: post #488

throwaway582 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sucks that you've had that experience, I'm sorry. I hope it's the exception and not the rule. I work on the Advertising part of Giant Search and Advertising, and my experience has been pretty great—indeed, working on interesting problems with a high degree of autonomy. I do need to persuade others of my ideas sometimes, or let them persuade me against them, but this seems like a good thing, and doesn't feel poli…

> I work on the Advertising part of Giant Search and Advertising [...] on interesting problems Genuine question - what do you consider to be interesting problems in advertising?

I work on infrastructure. Security, privacy, speed, reliability—all of these are complex challenges, especially at our scale.

And it's a reasonable question. Thanks for asking.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#630

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 3:38 PM UTC

ddalex wrote: post #608

Rury wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steve Jobs had a theory about why this type of stuff becomes prevalent in the lifecycle of companies: https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-on-why-innovation... Sounds a lot like google here. Frankly though, I think there's something more fundamental about large organization as to why this sort of stuff happens (not just at companies). Perhaps it's the iron law of oligarchy, but corruption seems inevitable at sc…

> Very few innovative people seem able to reap or retain the most value of their work. Once a company pays you, it's not your work, it's their work. They paid you fair and square. IMHO a developer need to produce about 10x what's his paid as to cover for the company costs and profits. If one thinks that they can cover those 9 tenths in marketing, office space, infrastructure, admin and legal costs in a more efficient…

They don't own your innovation outright unless that's in your work contract and you haven't negotiated a fairer deal.

And I have no idea where you get your 10X figure from. In fact it's very hard to estimate the specific business value of specific dev work in very large companies, over any time period.

From a high enough level the job becomes "Pay devs to keep the engines running." Unless you're innovating new products/services at a senior level, it's hard to break it down further.

Which is partly why the interview process has become homogenised. Realistically most developers are engine components, not engine designers - although it's easy to be fooled when your component value is process optimisation - and FAANGs have optimised the funnel to select good components.

You need to be senior++ and/or in startup land to be an engine designer - which differs from being a component because it allows independent agency for strategic goal setting, instead of optimisation of tactical implementation.