Terminating Service for 8Chan • Hacker News Board

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#621

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:53 AM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #266

tyre wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a misunderstanding of the word freedom. Freedom in speech means that I can say what I want. It does _not_ mean that a hosting company has to host it or that a CDN has to optimize it or that a search company has to rank it or that an ad-network has to monetize it. Each of those players is free to do what they think is best with their time, resources, etc.; which often includes thinking of what "the pub…

Should that mean a power company can cut off your power because they don't like what you've said? Should that mean the water company can cut your water off for criticizing them? Should that mean that a bank can refuse to give you a loan, because you said something bad, even if your credit is more than acceptable? ------------------------------- Remember this: its the extremist that the law is made around. And soon en…

Your hypos fall well short of the level of actions undertaken by the two sites which have been terminated by CloudFlare, which advocated for, championed, and celebrated violent actions against innocent and blameless third parties, including children.

Your argument fails to credibly address the situation at hand.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#622

Post by fgdaniels » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:53 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #527

odessacubbage wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and what about the the communities for queers and autistics on 8ch that will be lost in order to cater to your particular sense of indignation while in effect doing virtually nothing to limit the ability of psychopathic losers to kill large numbers of people? as an aside assigning any credibility to the motives of crazy person with no value for human life makes no more sense in the case of mass killings than it does…

What about them? They can move to other chans, plenty of which survive and thrive without heaps of nazis. If the owners of 8ch wanted to get rid of the nazis, then they wouldn't be coming under DDOS attack in about 5 minutes.

Is that a threat?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#623

Post by blacklight86 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:54 AM UTC

Lazare wrote: post #560

blacklight86 wrote: post #525

What kind of free speech are we exactly advocating here? The freedom to spread cheap hate, fake news and bigotry against minorities? I'm sorry but moderating such offenses isn't a limitation to free speech. For the same reason why, if you start shouting nig or monkey to black people in a shopping mall, the police is likely to intervene and take you away - and I don't think that any sane person would argue that they'r…

> The freedom to spread cheap hate, fake news and bigotry against minorities? I'm sorry but moderating such offenses isn't a limitation to free speech. For the same reason why, if you start shouting nig or monkey to black people in a shopping mall, the police is likely to intervene and take you away - and I don't think that any sane person would argue that they're violating your freedom of speech. Popper taught us th…

I know that the American legislation is quite laissez-faire when it comes to defamation than in other countries (Canada, the UK and most of the European countries). But it still exists and I believe that the 8chan case still violated what's the defamation/slander bar in the US. According to these guys http://kellywarnerlaw.com/us-defamation-laws/ there's defamation when the defendant:

Published or otherwise broadcast an unprivileged, false statement of fact about the plaintiff (true, many of the messages posted on the 8chan would talk about an invasion of Hispanic people who would mostly be into crime, something that can be disproved by just comparing Hispanic crime rates against those of white Americans).

Caused material harm to the plaintiff by publishing or broadcasting said false statement of fact (true, 30 casualties is a textbook definition of "material harm").

Acted either negligently or with actual malice (true, the negligent behaviour is especially evident on the 8chan side, which failed to apply simple moderation guidelines even when advised to do so).

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#624

Post by Chris_Chambers » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:58 AM UTC

AlphaGeekZulu wrote: post #597

rlonn wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but how can anyone say "what kind" of free speech...? Don't you see that labeling or discriminating between "free speech of type A, allowed" and "free speech of type B, disallowed" defeats the whole notion of "free"? Somehow people tend to think that their own discrimination isn't, while others is.

There is a clear (and working) distinction between free speech of type A and of type B in other countries. In Germany, just as an example, you are free to express your OPINION (type A), but not to express false facts (type B). If you express false facts, knowingly, and those false facts have damaging effects you are fully liable for compensation. Simple example: if a person wrongly claims, that some local artisan's b…

Germany isn't America. They are also a vassal state conquered by globalist bankers hellbent on punishing them for eternity for something barely any of the current living population had any part in. Odd choice for an example of "freedom".

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#625

Post by michaelt » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:58 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #599

stevenicr wrote: post #596

This is one of the most disturbing things I've read this year. Now I definitely do not feel like any of my sites are safe on cloudflare. I would appreciate even more transparency details to be published. When talking about cloudflare following the rule of law - will you all be more specific about which countries and which locales? There are rules in the UK I have read about that people wanted to bust through cloudfla…

> As soon as stormer was removed you changed from being a dumb pipe infrastructure company into one that can eject and censor at will. You're defending the Daily Stormer, do I read that correctly? > I look forward to an updating listing of sites that are not reachable via the cloudflare internet in various places. Cloudflare is not "the Internet". If Stormer or 8chan get kicked off of them, you can still access them…

  You're defending the Daily Stormer,
  do I read that correctly?

No, you're reading that incorrectly.

stevenicr is referring to Cloudflare's values of "total content neutrality" [1] where they argued they were similar to a 'common carrier' and should provide services to everyone, like a phone company or mail service would.

Such values have been articulated by Cloudflare's CEO himself [2].

Hence, the DDoS protection service would protect the Taliban, child pornographers, stolen credit card sellers, DDoS-as-a-service providers and, yes, neo-nazis. So this policy had odious consequences, but was at least consistent and clearly articulated.

The new policy seems a lot less clear - drop service to neo-nazis, by all means. But why haven't they dropped the Taliban and paedophiles and DDoS providers and carders at the same time?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cloudflare&oldid=... [2] https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#626

Post by MrsPeaches » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 8:59 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #205

This is the same argument cake shops make against taking order from gay people. I do believe that so-called manifesto is mind-numbingly dumb, fact-free and it is dangerous in the sense it will inspire more violence against innocent people. But that precisely what makes it a good test case for asking some fundamental questions. Can commercial businesses with deep reach, pricing power and critical function deny service…

Just wanted to point out that being gay is not an “ideology or belief” in the same way that being straight is not.

Comparing the two implicitly accepts the idea that one can choose to be gay (and can thus be changed with the right methods)

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#627

Post by vmurthy » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 9:00 AM UTC

blacklight86 wrote: post #525

What kind of free speech are we exactly advocating here? The freedom to spread cheap hate, fake news and bigotry against minorities? I'm sorry but moderating such offenses isn't a limitation to free speech. For the same reason why, if you start shouting nig or monkey to black people in a shopping mall, the police is likely to intervene and take you away - and I don't think that any sane person would argue that they'r…

> The root problem is Americans. And I'm honestly not sure of how to fix the problem with a whole population that has become so irrational, polarized, ignorant and sensitive to hate speech.

I doubt that only Americans are the problem in this case. I think what has happened is that hate speech and other undesirable (subjective word but bear with me) content is a hack into human psychology and a small percent of human beings regardless of nationality will always be influenced by hate speech and caste-ism and what not. The problem is that as the internet has reached the masses, the lone fanatic has a very large soapbox to shout and a very loud speaker to listen from.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#628

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 9:01 AM UTC

ryanlol wrote: post #585

SheinhardtWigCo wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They kinda are. DDoS protection is only viable at massive scale, but is table stakes for any website with content that someone out there might find objectionable.

lol. There are lots of providers with massive DDoS protection capacity specializing in hosting illegal or otherwise questionable content, they just charge more than cloudflare. Botnet C&Cs, cybercrime forums and card shops all need hosting and face massive attacks. Somehow I never hear the operators of those complaining.

They mainly use cloudflare. There have been a lot of discussions over it and also criticism.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#629

Post by hoseja » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 9:01 AM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #570

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users on 8chan (and Kiwifarms and similar sites) very specifically rile up hatred, they are frighteningly good at radicalizing frustrated young men. They regularly praise previous mass murderers and goad others into doing the same.

So what you are saying is that 8chan has the same content as certain Facebook groups. Why not drop Facebook?

Because it's much easier to succeed (and feel really good afterwards) in bullying the small deformed guy.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#630

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 9:02 AM UTC

Lazare wrote: post #15

On the one hand, I like the idea of a free, open, and distributed internet, where no one company or government has the power to control what is distributed or discussed. As the great John Gilmore said, more aspirationally than accurately even then: "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." On the other hand, we don't live in that world, and I don't know how well it would work in practice if we d…

We lived in that world until media pushed mentally ill people to the front.

Look at the graphs reporting on racism and the surge of terror.

They basically revived nationalistic movements for clicks. Not wanting to reverse cause and effect but there is ample evide ce that the call for censorship massivle accelerated occurrences like shootings.