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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#611

Post by sethammons »

theorique wrote: post #193
moocowduckquack wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fsck is funnier to a much wider group of people. The whole bro humour is deliberately exclusionary, it is an in-joke for tying together small groups of (mostly) young males. That is what it is for. This is also why it can work well in small groups, because in-jokes can help tie them together. However, as evidenced by this thread, a lot of people, many with well developed senses of humour, just don't find the whole br…

The whole bro humour is deliberately exclusionary, it is an in-joke for tying together small groups of (mostly) young males. That is what it is for. It's important to draw the distinction between the usage of the term to (1) describe oneself and one's peers and create an ingroup as opposed to (2) describe (and often criticize) others I don't see a lot of unironic usage of (1), aside from the odd tone-deaf fratboy. I…

I agree with (1) and (2). I know the first thought I had when I saw "bro pages" I thought is was a pun on "man pages." Turns out I was right. As others have noted, no one seems oppressed with "/sys" or that since jewelry is mostly a feminine product, that using "gem" is hostile. Or Julia. Etc. I'm sure the argument is something akin to being that because we are in a male dominated space, that feminine gendered words cannot be exclusionary.

What I really came here to post is that I am curious to hear from the _women_ who are offended by it and why. I am under the impression that most (all?) of the comments are from social justice white males picking up on something that they feel bolsters their ability to say, "look, I support woman in tech!" without actually doing anything real and concrete to, you know, actually support woman in tech (like working to get young woman interested in coding, working towards hiring practices that don't bias resume screening by removing names, or something similar).

I'm sure that I have phrased something completely sans sensitivity above and will be thoroughly lambasted. Hopefully it will be from a woman who can explain it to me, though, if we are to believe some of the comments above, then woman are actively avoiding this site due to sexist comments. Perhaps there is something so overtly sexist in what I wrote that I am part of the problem. However, I don't _think_ so. /me braces for down voting.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#612

Post by VexXtreme »

Steuard wrote: post #533
overgard wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brogrammer culture is hostile to women (at least in the sense that most women would feel less comfortable in a workplace dominated by that culture). It doesn't sound like you're arguing against that point. I don't even know what that is. Outside the bubble of HN I doubt most people have even heard the phrase. "Bro" for most people references dumb fratboys. Maybe it's a word that's offensive to fratboys, but I can't…

I can see two important things to say in response here: 1. I'm surprised that you don't know what "brogrammer culture" is, but that's okay. The point, though, is that for a lot of other people (particularly women) it is a familiar thing and it makes them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. You may not have had that experience, but part of having empathy for others is respecting that their experiences are still legitima…

> "this makes me feel excluded"

I personally find it EXTREMELY offensive that you assume women have such delicate sensibilities that they wouldn't find this funny or simply see it as a joke. What do you think they are children or mentally incapable of processing wordplay? In this context, "bro" is an obvious pun on "man", what more needs to be said about this?

I don't know a single woman who would feel excluded by this but know plenty who would find it offensive that a random white knight is getting offended on their behalf and creating a huge fuss assuming they are weak little creatures that don't have the basic social skills to process this as a joke.

Am I also supposed to be offended because I'm not American and the word "bro" is so specific to the American frat boy culture and doesn't exist anywhere else in the world? Should I get upset and walk out of the room in indignation every time my American coworker calls me "bro"? Am I supposed to feel excluded by that? Would you like to get offended on my account as well?

Get real man. It really takes a mind of special caliber to even connect something like this with gender issues and I'm sure most women would agree.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#613

Post by Jtsummers »

girvo wrote: post #602
Steuard wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see two important things to say in response here: 1. I'm surprised that you don't know what "brogrammer culture" is, but that's okay. The point, though, is that for a lot of other people (particularly women) it is a familiar thing and it makes them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. You may not have had that experience, but part of having empathy for others is respecting that their experiences are still legitima…

I disagree entirely. "Brogrammer" is not a well known phenomenon outside of Silicon Valley.

I was working in NC for a few years. I did not hear the term "brogrammer", but after leaving there and learning the term, it applied to several companies I knew. The typical setup was younger men with a manager in his 30s or early 40s. It was a tight knit group, they hung out together after hours, drank together, sports activities together, picked up women at bars (or tried to). Strong encouragement to work overtime, and their bonding made this an easier sell. They were doing overtime for ! He needs their help!

It was very much a culture that women did not fit into. And female programmers I knew tended to get put into CM and documentation roles, despite being very good programmers in their own right (better than most of the men in at least one case). And a guy that doesn't drink or want to go hit on chicks together with the boss as a wingman (because they're gay, in a relationship, or just don't enjoy that scene) didn't fit in either. The term may be a Silicon Valley thing, but the phenomenon is not.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#615

Post by amjd »

I don't see any gender implications here. When I first read the word bro pages, I thought it was simply a play of words on man pages, since man pages are kind of serious and verbose, bro pages will be a bit informal and have only examples. Maybe boy pages would've been better. Though I like the sound of tin pages as well, which someone here suggested...

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#616

Post by sethammons »

yeukhon wrote: post #531
aiiane wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No I am not ignoring sexism, I am saying the only reason we have sexism is because we are so conscious and so paranoid about it. So if we just stop complaining, things will magically get better.... because that has worked so well for marginalized groups in the past.

No. I said it is ridiculous to turn everything into a sexism discussion. Look, I said if people are making fun of female, like "sudo make me sandwich" that's sexist and we better make sure we correct that idea. It might be okay with a close friend but a public statement like that is obviously not acceptable. bro-page is not in the same category as "sudo make me sandwich". There is no sexism in that name. Just because…

I never noticed that "sudo make me a sandwich" is sexist. Maybe I missed the memo. It always conjures, for me, the idea that the computer will make me a sandwich. And if I were to go with the XKCD where most of us heard of it the first time, the image is without gender. It never occurred to me that only a woman would make a sandwich for someone. I guess that messes up when my dad would make me a sandwich. Or when I made some for my sisters and brothers. Maybe you are projecting your own sexist bias here?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#618

Post by sethammons »

ilyanep wrote: post #255
mkdir wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a society, we need to get over the chivalrous notion that something is automatically bad if it might trigger negative emotions in women. If women tend to be intimidated by head-to-head competition (of any type) with a man, it doesn't mean it's wrong or immoral for a man to compete head-to-head with a woman. If women tend to be intimidated when a muscular male stranger is in their presence, it doesn't mean it's wro…

For this comment I'm going to assume that you are a man. I apologize if this isn't the case. Let's say you wanted to be a teacher, a field that is largely female-dominated, and all of the teachers you've ever worked with spent a large amount of their time "expressing pride in their womanhood". Let's say it's pretty hard to find another male (maybe there are one or two in the school where you work out of say 30 teache…

Been there. Done that. Teachers are "encouraged" to decorate their rooms. Decorating is a feminine activity. Most meetings are surrounded by the woman talking about things important to them - sometimes very womanly topics like their period or lack their of due to menopause. Never once did I feel that I was being oppressed or anything. No other males mentioned it if they did. Guys and girls are different. This is a good thing.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#619

Post by mkdir »

jtheory wrote: post #499
mkdir wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: Is it never appropriate to tell a woman to lighten up?

Answer: yes, of course it's sometimes appropriate. But if you're having a serious conversation with someone on the subject of privilege, and you're on the privileged side (and they're not), the likelihood of you accurately identifying when they should lighten up is so vanishingly small (I keep finding my blind spots in spite of years of being attentive to this kind of stuff...), and the chance that they might actuall…

You're fighting to create a world in which the intellectual currency is not reason, evidence, or logic; it's self-proclaimed victimhood.

If I claim I'm a victim in a way that you're not, it becomes literally impossible for you to prove me wrong. If I go on to claim that we need new policies to protect me from (and/or compensate me for) that victimhood, you can't disagree. You can't do anything other than supplicate.

I hope you fail, buddy.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#620

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

koala_advert wrote: post #119
belluchan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found out in life that women can also be dependable, fun to hang out with, and not "complicate things." Using "bro" is offensive because it excludes others by their gender. It's an awful exclusionary term and you shouldn't think it funny or ironic. You're not taking this serious. I'm guessing because you haven't any idea of how soul crushing it can be to see this kind of behavior in the workplace when you're a…

Do you also get mad when people use the word "guys" to refer to more than one person of either sex?

"Guys" to include a mixed audience is how we get shit like "he" as default pronoun.
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