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They’re made out of weights

maxleiter.com

611–620 of 739 posts

Re: They’re made out of weights

#611
post #339
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we agree weights producing text may emerge consciousness, given large enough, then DBs must've gained it long ago. If we agree that silicon can perform calculations, then beaches must have been working out log tables long ago.

Greg Egan wrote an entire (fabulous) book about exactly that, "Permutation City".

Diaspora is mind-blowing, yet highly improbable and speculative, even though carefully threaded to sound plausible on all levels. The whole introdus idea and simulation from VM perspective sounds incredible, but I don't think the body runs a simulation of anything. It is something else.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#612
post #300
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we agree weights producing text may emerge consciousness, given large enough, then DBs must've gained it long ago. The whole idea of sentience "on the other side of the wire" is wrong, as there is neither wire, nor other side. We think there is, but the DB just expounds the query and repurposes this information into views, that we give notion and meaning to. LLMs are the same, do not be mistaken. One other importa…

> If we agree weights producing text may emerge consciousness, given large enough, then DBs must've gained it long ago. If we agree that silicon can perform calculations, then beaches must have been working out log tables long ago.

working out things,... is not calculating.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#613
post #157

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I was having a hard time pinning down what bothered me about this but I think you put it pretty well. It draws an analogy between us and the skeptical aliens in the original story which feel silly to us, so the obvious implication is that we're being as silly as they were. But it doesn't really give a reason to accept the analogy, it just asserts it. There's a big difference between a whole civilization and a piece o…

> But it doesn't really give a reason to accept the analogy, it just asserts it. It's not a paper or a proof. It's a story. Doesn't want to prove the analogy, it wants to convey it.

This. I think a lot of people discussing it here are missing this point.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#614
post #215
post #203

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Sure, but capacity for self-awareness? I'd guess that hamsters dream, and that their subconscious processes (eg, desires for food and sleep and sex), and maybe even emotions, run much like ours. It's just that humans, with more complex neural networks, have more layers added on top. It's similar to how the brain-stems of everything from lizards on "up" function similarly, but humans have more-developed pre-frontal co…

Well in that case I'm not sure where you're going. I agree that hamsters probably have a similar consciousness to ours, which is kind of the point I was trying to make. I think that consciousness comes before self-awareness, even though self-awareness is kind of a vague term. Self-awareness can either be an abstract knowledge that you are an organism and a discrete entity in the world (world knowledge/self knowledge)…

I think we agree on all of those points. I'd posit, however, that whatever "it" is, and however you define it, humans are further up the scale than other animals. That's partly why I mentioned language use; it could be the step function that allows further development. Like, sophisticated-enough communication with other conscious entities is the factor that unleashes recursive improvement. This is all highly speculative.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#615

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It's like a giant plinko board where the shape of the original disc guides how it falls through the apparatus, and the apparatus has been tuned so that different discs end up in the exits we want them to

That's a scam.

In what way is GP comment promising a product and then not delivering, or are you just throwing the word "scam" around?

Re: They’re made out of weights

#616
post #371

This would be a masterpiece if it was half as long, the second half is not as convincing or compelling.

Indeed, the leap takes place in the second half. > Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to apologize to weights? How did we leap to this? There's nothing to apologize to. They're weights.

"There's nothing to apologize to. They're weights."

  - The Meat

Re: They’re made out of weights

#617

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A blind person has touched warm and hot things and gotten burned before, and then they are told lava is this molten liquid that is even hotter than anything they have touched. That is enough for them to understand. A blind person that never touched a hot object wouldn't really know though, there is a reason we dismiss talk from people who lack experience.

You don't know that. Yo don't know what someone would think if you tell them the general concept of cold and warm. The reaction you should have, the feeling etc. I asked chatgpt how it would describe a scene without mentioning temperature. It was very good in describing what a human would describe. I'm aware of the bias we have against LLMs but I think people just underestimate how much data is there. I'm not saying…

think of it like this: the goal of LLMs (im saying LLM as shorthand for all of the AI algs) is to replicate human output / work, not so much to capture the human experience. so in order to do things, like communicate concepts, play a role in a scene, make choices, we project our human experience down into a lower resolution / constrained space to generate an output.

the question then is whether or not LLMs can mimic the projection of human experience as well as the real thing or not. My hypothesis is no for total general replication, but in certain fixed problem spaces I think its yes and the set of these spaces is growing. will it grow enough to encompass all practical work? not sure yet

AI tools are more like an author writing a character than a human revealing truths about their experiences. the difference between the LLM and an actual author is that the LLM kind of starts off with a 'flanderized' version of the character while an author can sort of blend personal experience and character to get at real human relatable decisions for the character. the result can be indistinguishable, because if the LLM is too predictable, too flanderized, we can inject artificial randomness to it to simulate personality.

you end up with unsolvable debates like movie critics have. "This character wouldnt make that decision in that situation if they were a real person, it doesnt make sense" vs real humans making irrational decisions.

ultimately i think the human experience is something we learn about with each other as we live it, and to think were any good at identifying it from sufficiently good imposters is putting the cart before the horse. once i know something is done by an actual human, my understanding of the world can shift. we dont decide what it means to be human, we accept what humanity is and try to work with it. So the philosophical debate on AI experience is moot to me, its not human therefor it teaches me nothing about humans and can replace exactly 0 human activity for me. Still can be a useful tool though

Re: They’re made out of weights

#618

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Yes this is more like compression to remember and not for learning/understanding.

Compression is the reason why these Models are able to learn and understand. My brain is doing the exact same thing. I learned enough to compress concepts like a bike and what a bike does and for what i can use a bike. Ask a LLM and it will answer you similiar to humans. Blind people learn concepts of bikes too and in a smiliar way: by description. LLMs just have so much data in form of text available and are able to…

Compression and existence of mechanism to expound on it does not imply consciousness.

Otherwise, yes, finally people observe the very apparent fact that LLMs are one very smart compression.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#619
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tokenizer is a deterministic string-matching program, it's not made out of weights in the same sense as a neural network itself.

But it could be. It's just less efficient.

I don't see how. You could ask a neural network to do the tokenization I suppose, but in doing so you'd have to convert the prompt into tokens via the same deterministic process the network was trained on, essentially just moving the exact same process up one layer.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying we have a good idea of how the brain works massively overstates the case... We know how neurons fire. We do not know how a brain turns that into thought, meaning, intention, experience and on and on. That is not "pretty well understanding the brain", it's understanding some components and hand waving the thing we actually care about.

What I actually care about is how neural activity translates to behavior. And we have a good enough idea of that that we can design SSRI medicine to treat depression, or neurological tests to detect Alzheimer. As for experience we do know something and we are learning more with cognitive psychology, in e.g. priming experiments etc. I feel like the search for consciousness is to psychology what the search for the Aeth…

i know the sun shows up every day and i know if i go inside my basement i dont get a tan. do i understand the sun?
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