New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag • Hacker News Board

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#611

Post by boxed » Wed, May 06, 2026, 5:42 AM UTC

datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #608

boxed wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea but that falls apart on even a slight poke. Who is trans? Anyone who identifies as trans. Who is British? Anyone who identifies as British. There's not a lot of difference there. Citizenship COULD be used, but now you're talking about two different domains of language. A person who is British but now has an American citizenship, still talks with a British accent and identifies as British is still British. The sam…

I’m not following your argument at all, could you try to word it differently? The distinction I’m drawing is that flags that represent peoples are usually more ideologically pure: people seeking justice or rights. They may be co-opted over time by more actors who deviate from the original intention (e.g. Gadsden Flag). Nation flags, on the other hand, are by definition exclusionary towards an outgroup that exists by…

> Nation flags, on the other hand, are by definition exclusionary towards an outgroup that exists by legal distinction

I did notice how extremely specific that was. Because the current LGBTQ+ grouping have been quite exclusionary towards even LGB for quite some time now. Your point that they can be coopted is something I absolutely agree with.

> In the historical record, nationalism rarely works out well for anyone who sits outside the definition of a nation.

"What did the Romans ever do for us?". Pax Americana has been ENORMOUSLY beneficial for billions of people starting in 1943 arguably. And obviously the Roman Empire was followed by the Dark Ages. You're cherry picking.

> Is your point that all flags have the same ideological utility no matter what they represent?

I think my original point when posting that there's a lot of flag waving on the left, is that... well.. the post before that claimed there isn't which is just wrong. Now I would say that my point is that ALL movements/nations/corporations/whatever are co-optable. There's absolutely no difference between nations or movements.

It's not a left vs right thing. It never was. People who say it are are historically ignorant, naive, willfully ignorant, or a combination of those. "Right" and "left" are pretty much meaningless anyway. We have to look at individual movements, people, policies, and actions individually without falling back to our own group identity to judge the moral character of the thing.

I've seen people claim that since "the left" were right about women's rights, then it must be ok whatever "the left" is doing now because historically "the left" is always on the right side of history. Just ignoring the 100+ million dead from communism.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#612

Post by aubanel » Wed, May 06, 2026, 10:01 AM UTC

ninjagoo wrote: post #271

gopperl wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents, as they were to theirs. Are you claiming to have controlled where and to whom you were born? You did not choose your parents, country, ancestry, class, era, genes, language, or inherited institutions. You may be inseparable from those facts, but you did not earn them. > There's no luck involved in the fact that you were born to your parents >…

> And what was your contribution to those achievements to justify this pride?

Of course personal contribution is a factor of pride, and arguably the most justified one.

But it's far from the only one. - fan clubs - a child marvelling on how strong/cool their parents are - US citizens on 4th of July (I'm not American btw)

All of these contributed ~nothing in the phenomenon; their pride comes from the wonders worked by the group they belong to. One does not need to _earn_ pride.

Think it the other way : if you don't think legitimate for the receivers of wonders to feel pride, think of it from the side of the providers of wonders. Parents who toiled for their children, great statespeople who worked hard to improve their country: they intentionally directed their efforts towards someone (descendants, citizens). I think pride is sort of gratitude of receivers for the fruits of a common group's efforts. And it's completely justified IMO to feel un-earned pride.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#613

Post by lynx97 » Wed, May 06, 2026, 12:13 PM UTC

danparsonson wrote: post #589

lynx97 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matthew 7:3–5 I am not religious, but this quote keeps coming up... And people keep forgetting about it.

Forgive me if I'm mischaracterising you but you seem to be not only reinforcing the false equivalence but in fact doubling down on it? That trans rights protesters are not only morally equivalent to nationalist protesters, but in fact, in some way more of a problem? A plank in the eye vs a mote of dust? When I say 'false equivalence' in this context I don't mean 'nationalist protesters are all bad and trans rights pr…

Replace foreigners with cis-men, and the situation stays the same. Radicalized people are the problem. Nationalist or trans, I dont care.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#614

Post by ImPostingOnHN » Wed, May 06, 2026, 1:49 PM UTC

pigclocks wrote: post #594

danparsonson wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me if I'm mischaracterising you but you seem to be not only reinforcing the false equivalence but in fact doubling down on it? That trans rights protesters are not only morally equivalent to nationalist protesters, but in fact, in some way more of a problem? A plank in the eye vs a mote of dust? When I say 'false equivalence' in this context I don't mean 'nationalist protesters are all bad and trans rights pr…

> given the trans rights cause itself is centered around support and love for a group of people If only that were true. As a political project, it's mostly focused on abolishing the boundaries around single-sex spaces, and certainly in terms of rhetoric, mostly those boundaries used to safeguard women and girls. Just look at the frequent threats of violence and death threats that women who speak out against this, suc…

> If only that were true. As a political project...

Equal rights for trans folks is a political project, eh? Who's the project manager? :)

> Just look at the frequent threats of violence and death threats that women who speak out against [equal rights for trans folks]

What reaction did you expect to someone advocating against equal rights? To someone advocating for unequal rights for people who are different? To someone fanning the flames of the frequent threats of violence and death threats received by the women who speak out for equal rights for trans folks?

You're familiar with Popper's Paradox of Tolerance? It would be counterproductive to expect folks to tolerate any and all intolerance, and it would be cruel gaslighting to expect the victims of abuse to be tolerant towards their persecutors.

Re: New statue in London, attributed to Banksy, of a suited man, blinded by a flag

#615

Post by brookst » Thu, May 07, 2026, 2:30 PM UTC

mike_hearn wrote: post #576

brookst wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, if you’re moving the goalposts from “Banksy had official support putting it up” to “the authorities reacted differently after the fact than they would have for others”, then I actually agree.

Official support and not interfering with it being put up are nearly the same thing. It's not like throwing up a statue is some complex operation only governments can carry out.

“Officials knew in advance and helped or actively decided not to interfere” is NOT nearly the same thing as “Banksy’s team used social engineering to blend in and go unquestioned”.

The claim was that they had government assistance doing the project. IMO that’s just a conspiracy theory to explain what “bunch of construction workers with flatbed truck, traffic cones, and high viz vests” sufficiently explains.