Live data from Hacker News

Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

tomshardware.com

611–620 of 675 posts

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, providing the government with the ability to stabilize market prices in the short term when volatility strikes. Which is the thing they don't really even do, because their existence is not a secret, but then knowing of their existence discourages anyone else from setting up a reserve because they expect the government to unload right when they'd be trying to recover the costs of operating it. Then the market…

People aren't as stupid as you appear to think. Yes, there are second (and third, forth, ...) order effects. Typically these sorts of systems will settle into an equilibrium. A reasonably competent government agency will account for that where necessary. It's strange. You object to the government here yet expect private industry to fill the same gap. Why do you believe private industry would navigate these issues bet…

> You object to the government here yet expect private industry to fill the same gap. Why do you believe private industry would navigate these issues better than a government agency would? Given the difference in incentives it doesn't make any sense.

Profit-seeking actors have the direct incentive to balance risks and rewards. It's popular to hate on speculators, but "build a storage facility so you can buy a commodity when it's cheap and sell whenever the price is high" as a means to make money is actually pretty legitimate. And then they have the right incentives to manage costs and keep realistic inventory levels because they're spending their own money instead of someone else's. Whereas the government's incentive is to give lucrative contracts to cronies or hoard a ridiculous amount of the commodity because they're spending someone else's money and get blamed if there's not enough but not if there's too much.

There is also an advantage in diversity. Government tends to monoculture. How much does the price have to go up before the government starts unloading inventory? How much does the answer depend on politics? Things are better when instead of one essentially monopolist with a massive tank, you have a thousand independent entities with small ones, because then you get a smoother curve with less relationship to the election cycle. And you get different people trying to solve the problem in different ways. Speculators build tanks, entrepreneurs develop recycling systems, buyers make contingencies to use a substitute, but none of that happens if everyone is expecting the government to guarantee the price.

> Industry is notoriously bad at making short term sacrifices for long term risk management.

Middle managers in large bureaucracies are notoriously bad at this, because enormous conglomerates insulated from competition and subject to the principal-agent problem are not subject to a good set of incentives in many ways. It's why we're supposed to have antitrust laws.

Markets as a whole are pretty good at it, because "price goes up when supply is low" is a predictable opportunity to make money.

> Would you rather the government force them to maintain their own reserves via regulation?

The whole point is to stop having the people who don't pay the cost of doing it be the ones who choose how much there should be and what kind.

> Rapid price fluctuations are one issue. Essential resources are an entirely separate problem. Volatility and starving to death both involve price movement but are otherwise very different things.

They're the same problem because the problem in both cases is supply less than demand and then you're left with the same question of how best to contend with that.

Notice also that the government doesn't keep a multi-year supply of food and that doesn't seem to be any kind of a problem.

> So if the reserve is run by the government it's removing slack and reducing supply, but when run by private industry ... ?

When it's run by private industry it costs less, and more to the point costs the people who want the buffer instead of strangers without the bandwidth or domain knowledge to know if what's being done is cost effective or even necessary.

> No amount of regular slack is ever going to be able to compensate for a tail risk that blocks the import of an essential good. Take oil for example. No company is ever going to voluntarily warehouse enough to keep the entire US economy going for any significant amount of time. It's a crazy small tail risk and very expensive to counterbalance.

The US is a net exporter of oil and oil is widely traded global commodity with significant price elasticity of demand, so you don't get actual shortages unless you try something foolish like price controls. Instead people pay $4/gallon instead of $3 which causes the people who drive the most to switch to electric cars or hybrids, other suppliers to increase production, etc.

> Why would that be? Filling and emptying shifts demand but doesn't create additional.

Filling creates additional demand but if you're using a large enough reserve to be at low risk of ever running out then by design the emptying never fully happens.

> Anyway you seem to be arguing that private industry should do this for themselves. So whatever the effects are they will be present either way.

Private industry would size the reserve according to the risk instead of having the incentive to be excessively risk averse because they're spending someone else's money.

> Why do you expect disproportionate expenditures? The cost is that of warehousing.

Suppose you have a reserve which holds X amount and there is an average annual withdrawal and refilling of 0.5X, once every ten years you would use the full X amount, and once every 50 years you would use 5X if you had it.

The 5X reserve requires five times as many tanks and requires you to eat the time value of money on five times as much of the commodity, but only gets used once every 50 years instead of being mostly used every year. It's not worth having; it's better to eat the higher prices that year than to pay even more to prevent them. There are some risks it costs less to buy insurance against than to mitigate. But risk-averse people spending someone else's money will be more inclined to do it anyway, or to build a 10X reserve "just to be sure".

The government also uses government contractors which do not have a good record for cost efficiency.

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CPI is kept artificially down by claiming that items that increase a lot in value are sudendly "higher quality" so that their price is adjusted down to equalize for "quality". They will just take those items off the basket, put in different ones and claim that those are better quality so the actual price increase is in line with expectations.

I can understand a certain amount of switching in the basket - e.g. a washing machine or dishwasher was once a "luxury good" in a market such as USA, but is now (for the most part) an everyone-appliance. Interesting to consider the alternative case though, an "everyone basket item" becoming a "luxury good". Democracy, maybe? But I don't think they've put that in the CPI basket - yet! :-P

the category is still in the basket (washers and dryers) but there's a model to compare an old washing machine with a new modern fancy one

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/quality-adjustment/clothes-washers.h...

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is it doesn’t take giant tankers going through the Strait of Hormuz to move this volume. It could be handled by tanker trucks going to Suez….

This has nothing to do with transport. Iranian drone strikes disabled a Qatari helium _production_ facility.

You should be able to make a killing placing commodity bets right now, because you have such crystal clear vision for the causal chain currently underway

What are your top positions? You will never need to work again!

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#614
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot written about this in the 1990s during the rise of globalization and just in time supply chains. Basically, you build a big warehouse and keep it full when prices are below projection. This is equivalent to investing capital at a negative interest rate, so it’s not done anymore. Instead, the system is designed to pass supply shocks on to the consumer when possible. I’ve noticed the local grocery store…

> This is equivalent to investing capital at a negative interest rate, so it’s not done anymore. Stupidity of financializing everything. There’s no amount of money in the world that can quantify the safety of having critical items like food in supply. You can’t eat money. If everyone builds “just in time” supply chains the world collapses after a single shock.

but there's finite resources. cost-benefit analysis still makes sense. there are things that consumers can easily substitute.

for example meat is a high-quality but luxury source of protein, as in it's expensive, but people like it a lot so they pay a lot for it, see beef prices, but except specific allergies everyone can switch to poultry, fish, or plant-based protein sources easily, as in anyone people who prepare food at home can easily prepare a different one, restaurants can switch too, etc.

but there are products with very fragile supply-chains, like baby formula (breast milk is not always available/possible), but there are not a lot of domestic producers, and there's some typical political meddling with it (since it's critical there's a lot of subsidy for it, and since it's quality controlled it's not easy to enter the market, since it's FDA controlled you can't just import it), yet there's no mandatory stockpiling. it would push up the price. how much? who knows. depending on how perishable the product, how much would it cost to warehouse it. should this be done with public money? should this be one more regulatory burden? yet more cost-benefit questions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_infant_form...

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In such scenarios, debond the generator's ground from neutral eeeeep. Please for the love of all that is holy, CONTACT AN ELECTRICIAN before messing around with that - or before creating a ground bond where none should be (i.e. TT grid [1]). You may end up endangering yourself if you do not exactly know what you are doing - in the case of TT, you get ground potential difference current from other parts of the grid…

I'm not sure I'd leave something like this to an electrician. Or if so at least make that electrician be experienced in this field. I think you'd want an electrical engineer to be involved with the plan to some degree.

Electrical engineers don’t know code requirements and wiring guidelines for household electrical wiring. They’re absolutely not the correct default. Electricians with specialization in generator setups, sure, but an electrician engineer on average is likely going to be more uninformed on code requirements than an electrician.

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commercial uses layered surge protectors (Type I, II, and III), which is also recommended for other users but rarely followed. In surge prone areas, at a minimum I would have good quality whole-house surge protector (eg Siemens 140 or Eaton 108), and a good quality surge protector strip for any computer/TV/phone charger. I also put surge protectors in front of expensive white goods like the fridge, washer/dryer, dish…

> Nothing (reasonable) can protect against direct lightning strikes This is one reason why you bury power cables.

Burying power cables doesn’t help against direct lightning strikes. If lightning hits your house, underground power cables will do nothing.

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Same timeframe and I've lived through both lots of lightning storms and in areas with lots of power failures. Some of them intermittent and essentially caused by transformers blowing up. Like earlier this winter, we had multiple storms where you'd hear a transformer blow up, in many cases even seeing the sky light up as well from it, power going out, couple seconds, power coming back, next transformer blowing o…

Definitely use quality surge protectors on expensive equipment connected to generators. PSA: UPSes and GFCI/GFI extension cords won't work properly when connected to a stand-alone generator with a bonded neutral. I've tried using enterprise UPSes on such generators, but they absolutely won't work. In such scenarios, debond the generator's ground from neutral, apply a very large warning label to it being debonded, and…

GFCI works correctly either way. Their operating mode doesn't care at all about ground: Whether bonded, not bonded, or not even present (look, ma! only two wires!), they still perform the same way.

They respond to an imbalance in current flow betwixt line and neutral. What goes out must return; if it doesn't, then switch off.

Ground is not part of the equation at all.

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In such scenarios, debond the generator's ground from neutral eeeeep. Please for the love of all that is holy, CONTACT AN ELECTRICIAN before messing around with that - or before creating a ground bond where none should be (i.e. TT grid [1]). You may end up endangering yourself if you do not exactly know what you are doing - in the case of TT, you get ground potential difference current from other parts of the grid…

I'm not sure I'd leave something like this to an electrician. Or if so at least make that electrician be experienced in this field. I think you'd want an electrical engineer to be involved with the plan to some degree.

Electrical engineers know the theory but lack the practical knowledge which grid form is used at your specific address (yes, here in Germany we have a few towns where one half side of a street runs TT and the other one is already migrated to TN-C or TN-C-S).

An electrician specializing in lightning protection, uninterruptible power installation or in radio installations can sort out all of that far better than an engineer can.

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#619

> South Korea is among the most exposed countries, which, according to the Korea International Trade Association, imported 64.7% of its helium from Qatar in 2025. The country relies heavily on helium imports to cool silicon wafers during fabrication and is understood to have no viable substitute. I assume the helium is enclosed in a a chip's hermetically sealed package, if it were just for cooling wafers I don't unde…

I assume purity matters. It probably picks up a lot of contaminants during use, and chip manufacturing is pretty sensitive to contaminants.

you can put He in a closed loop system and still use it for cooling, by using it as the thermodynamic working fluid, and then selecting any other fluid as the heat carrier?

Re: Qatar helium shutdown puts chip supply chain on a two-week clock

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is generally plenty of ambient air in the earth's atmosphere

And how can that ambient air be stuffed into bags to control buoyancy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pump
Post reply on HN