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Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

europeanbusinessmagazine.com

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Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#611

Post by anigbrowl »

eastbayjake wrote: post #97
ekjhgkejhgk wrote: post #8

I always find it entertaining to hear people try to argue that what these companies do is soooooo difficult and that's why they're valuable. It's just multiple computers keeping a balance. It's not complicated. No, these companies keep themselves in power not because they've solved such a difficult problem that nobody else can, but because they have a moat which they protect. Time to do away with these foreign entiti…

I'm a little shocked that of all the comments so far, no one has mentioned the financial risk borne by this whole value chain. OP is operating as if it's just a debit system moving money from one account to another but: - For many consumers there isn't sufficient money in the account to settle all the one-time and ongoing transactions they are liable for -- credit cards are giving you a revolving loan, there's risk i…

Gotta echo other commenters here. Many people do not want revolving credit, or want to just use it to smooth out balance spikes and for emergencies. The American tropes of carrying a large debt balance or maxing out cards (eg to launch a business) as financial strategies are viewed as somewhere between gambling and fraud by a lot of people.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#612

Post by NoPicklez »

jimnotgym wrote: post #147
ericmay wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you could do that, but that sucks. Not just in philosophy (I don't want to download your crappy app - this applies to any country) but also in practice. Thankfully Americans at least have enough purchasing power that the demand for convenience - just take my money with this card will keep us away from bad solutions in Europe.

>Well, you could do that, but that sucks Only sucks for the Americans though, I think most people non American countries will be fine with that

Sorry it would suck for everyone, including an Australian like me. How does it not suck?

Why can't I just use my one debit card anywhere, why do I need to setup a separate card with a random app in another country, then another in another country etc.

My visa debit card allows me to travel virtually anywhere and use my own money without issue.

Anything else is just extremely inconvenient and technologically not really necessary

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#613

Post by NoPicklez »

tzs wrote: post #128
ericmay wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, these companies keep themselves in power not because they've solved such a difficult problem that nobody else can, but because they have a moat which they protect. I don't know that the problem is sophisticated, but it's certainly complex [1]. It's a bit of both in terms of complexity and defending a moat, which all businesses do, including, and especially European ones. And companies like Visa, Mastercard, Ame…

> Because at a minimum you want American tourist dollars and Europe isn't going to start issuing European credit cards to Americans or other citizens around the world. It could be handled similarly to how tourists in Brazil can now use Brazil's Pix payment system. One way Brazil handles it is with 3rd party digital wallets that tourists can install on their phones such as Wallbit [1]. Another way is with 3rd party se…

Sorry but this is silly, as an Australian I can also travel anywhere with my visa debit card without issue. No need to setup a random app for the particular country and transfer money into that, if I need to transfer money into a random app why I can't I just pay the vendor directly?

My visa debit card allows me to travel virtually anywhere and use my own money without issue.

Anything else is just extremely inconvenient and technologically not really necessary

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#614

Post by NoPicklez »

Supermancho wrote: post #598
otterley wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My usual response to claims like this is “if it’s so easy, why haven’t you done it yet?”

Trolling is not insightful. A number of other companies already have "done it" and are in use across the world. The question is why aren't western nations ALL using alternates yet? The article is pointing out that a new attempt is gaining political momentum, which answers the question.

> It's just multiple computers keeping a balance. It's not complicated.

I'd argue this was the trolling

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#615

Post by themafia »

havaloc wrote: post #46
ekjhgkejhgk wrote: post #8

I always find it entertaining to hear people try to argue that what these companies do is soooooo difficult and that's why they're valuable. It's just multiple computers keeping a balance. It's not complicated. No, these companies keep themselves in power not because they've solved such a difficult problem that nobody else can, but because they have a moat which they protect. Time to do away with these foreign entiti…

I think it's probably a little bit harder than you think with all the rules and regulations out there. I would highly encourage anybody who's remotely interested, listen to the Acquired podcast episode regarding Visa. It's actually quite fascinating how it was started. You may balk at the length, but the whole thing had me interested. https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/visa

> with all the rules and regulations out there.

And who wrote those? Aren't they just another part of the moat?

> It's actually quite fascinating how it was started.

Visa was founded in 1958 by Bank of America (BofA) as the BankAmericard credit card program.[1] In response to competitor Master Charge (now Mastercard), BofA began to license the BankAmericard program to other financial institutions in 1966.[8] By 1970, BofA gave up direct control of the BankAmericard program, forming a cooperative with the other various BankAmericard issuer banks to take over its management. It was then renamed Visa in 1976.

The answer is: "Banks."

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#616

Post by Sebguer »

simplyluke wrote: post #481
ekjhgkejhgk wrote: post #8

I always find it entertaining to hear people try to argue that what these companies do is soooooo difficult and that's why they're valuable. It's just multiple computers keeping a balance. It's not complicated. No, these companies keep themselves in power not because they've solved such a difficult problem that nobody else can, but because they have a moat which they protect. Time to do away with these foreign entiti…

> It's just multiple computers keeping a balance. It's not complicated. It wouldn't be hacker news without a comment like this. I haven't personally worked in finance, but I've had a lot of friends do it. It _absolutely_ is complicated. It's not too complicated for a nation or the EU to do it in house, but no, there's a bit more there than "Claude make me a ledger"

it's just addition and subtraction, how hard can it really be???

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#617

Post by georgeecollins »

Saline9515 wrote: post #404
maigret wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually European integration the last 30 years has been pretty remarkable. In the past, not even electric plugs were compatible. But the EU is not a country. A lot of the inefficiencies are actually features sought by key members to protect their own local incumbents.

Your best example of European integration is electric plugs?

USB-C!

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#618

Post by hirako2000 »

ginko wrote: post #71
hirako2000 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of a physical card is obsolete. That North Americans and western Europeans for a good part still use them is just stickiness of the infrastructure, and habits. Developing countries have mostly leapfrogged to total contactless payments. In South Aast Asia, you typically scan a QR code and approve a payment from your own phone. Far less fraud as a result. Nobody is able to touch your card, you don't have on…

Qr apps just sound cumbersome compared to contactless tap to pay.

Contactless is the convenience provided to get us into some wall garden. Apple pay. Google pay. Samsung pay.

These are not open or interchangeable standard, they aren't interested in that. They want our valuable transactional data, and location when those are made.

QR codes are a standard. It allows any bank to issue funds. It's a wire transfer. Transfer are a standard. Any bank can adopt it. Typically a bank adopts it..it doesn't require a specific device or partnership for merchant, nor the payer.

It also offers the ability to transfer funds remotely. In that sense it is more so contact "less" than the proximity handshake that contactless payments do, which is somewhat proprietary.

You can save a QR code, make a payment later. QR codes also are more intuitive because they represent an identity. An electronic device that can be swapped, tempered with, is unhelpful to help figure out a fraud or who we are actually paying until the handshake happens.

More importantly they don't incur a hidden fee for either the payer or merchant. Because it's a transfer. Not a transfer disguised as card payment.

A QR code scan keep the payer in control. Merchant presents an amount to pay, payer initiates the transactions, approves, and gets a confirmation. Can use bank A, or Y, or even a bank in another country, so long as it supports QR scan and a fast wire so that the merchant can be assured the transfer is well received.

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#619

Post by [deleted] »

vkou wrote: post #592
olalonde wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to switch the world to a debit-based system where economic transactions are limited by cash on hand, I'd argue that's a poorer and less dynamic world than the one we're operating in today. Disagree. Credit has its uses, but debit is superior for the vast majority consumer transactions: lower fees, lower risk, instant settlement, easy P2P transfers, and broader accessibility. That we've become used to cr…

Instant settlement is an anti-feature. I don't want some asshole to be able to instantly drain my bank account. If I did, I'd be carrying a suitcase of cash around with me.

[deleted]

Re: Europe's $24T Breakup with Visa and Mastercard Has Begun

#620

Post by [deleted] »

joe_mamba wrote: post #316
digiown wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really a human right issue. No one should be required to carry an attacker-controlled tracking device, especially not for interacting with the government. It's funny that the EU uses all this mobile attestation BS more than the US does. So much for sovereignty and consumer protection. No monopoly Google can build is as good as the government forcing you to accept their terms.

>No one should be required to carry an attacker-controlled tracking device What about being required to carry a your-own-government-controlled tracking device? Because the US or Chine government can't harm me in Europe via the data they collect from me, But the EU authorities can if they want to, so naturally I fear them more if they were the ones hoovering my data. What are the odds they're using this on-shore tech…

[deleted]
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