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Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
611–620 of 697 posts
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#612Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I, a foreign entity, have sold something to an american and now have 10 dollars and zero treasuries. Or you sold something to a non-American entity in a dollar-based market, eg. oil. The dollars do come from America to begin with, but once they get "out there" they work as a medium of exchange for whoever wants to use them for that purpose.
Which is why the US historically bombed any country that sold oil for other currencies, but now china is negotiating the petroyuan and it's working.
Interesting - The petroyuan was not on my radar at all.
https://ipr.blogs.ie.edu/2025/06/27/geopolitics-of-oil-how-c...: This article explores case studies such as Russia, Iran, and Venezuela, illustrating how the petroyuan has been implemented to bypass sanctions and reduce dependence on US financial systems.
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#613Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if the rise in index funds is a bubble on its own? It's massive and increasing amounts of money that is not price sensitive and keeps growing. There's an underlying bubble message: "the stock market always bounces back, so keep plowing your money into it even when it's down". Apparently passive funds are 60% of mutual funds / ETFs now https://www.avantisinvestors.com/avantis-insights/has-passiv... Even more insi…
I've been invested largely in US index funds for a while now, and I've definitely thought about this. My conclusion is S&P 500 is too big too fail, everyone with various forms of power in the US (economic, political, etc) are incentivized to keep the music going. Sure it feels unsustainable, but there is no way going active can help me—I don't have enough access to the right people, and even if I did, it's better as…
I'm along the same lines of thinking. I got most of my funds in SGOV (I manually did t-bills for a while but too lazy to keep it going).
> there is no way going active can help me—I don't have enough access to the right people
It really comes down to this realization. Without access to what all these billionaires and their companies have access to, I just feel like a pawn with everything to lose.
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#614I feel like there's some credibility to 'this time it's different' The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon - the US dollar is the world's main reserve currency, the US enforces international order and trade rules via its military strength, it dominates technology and culture through 'US defaultism'. I dont think AI even factors in to this. The US economy is priced for global reach - if it ma…
> The US economy depends on the country's position of world hegemon
Your premise depends on that being true, and you stated that like it's a fact. It's an unsupported opinion.
The US economy was the world's largest before 1890, without anything remotely resembling the global reserve currency or superpower military.
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#615What is different this time? Maybe: 1 Online shopping market in the range of 5 trillions 2 Electricity and energy price raise 3 Impossibility to lower interest rates 4 Tech market also in the range of multi Trillions 5 Global education and power expansion ... Meaning that a % of all this money flow goes private pockets destroying medium class, which gets poorer. It is like a memory leak that keeps sucking resources w…
Is it just me or does this metaphor sound AI generated?
> It is like a memory leak that keeps sucking resources while growing exponentially until the system crashes. The real question for an economist is how much ram has the system and how much the memory has leaked?
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#616What is different about this time is how much a crash is expected, which is reflected in the run up in the gold price, for one. It’s also reflected in the public discourse about the high probability of a crash - as with this post and many others over the past couple years. 2008 was sudden and unexpected by most. The dot com crash was sudden and unexpected by most. If we crashed today it would have been expected by mo…
The dot com crash was absolutely expected - today's "cmon, get it over with! crash!" tone we see in regards to the AI bubble is hilariously reminiscent of the late 90s dot com bubble. It was the era that spawned the famous Economist leader "Crash Dammit!"
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#617Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if the rise in index funds is a bubble on its own? It's massive and increasing amounts of money that is not price sensitive and keeps growing. There's an underlying bubble message: "the stock market always bounces back, so keep plowing your money into it even when it's down". Apparently passive funds are 60% of mutual funds / ETFs now https://www.avantisinvestors.com/avantis-insights/has-passiv... Even more insi…
US stock market index funds will crash when the US stock market crashes. That will require very large sums of capital to decide to move away from US capital markets. To give an idea of how much money would need to move - VTSAX alone is about $2.1 trillion, with hundreds of billions of dollars of shares of each Mag7 stock. You basically need the world to decide that EMEA/JAP markets are collectively stronger than the…
> US stock market index funds will crash when the US stock market crashes. That will require very large sums of capital to decide to move away from US capital markets. To give an idea of how much money would need to move - VTSAX alone is about $2.1 trillion, with hundreds of billions of dollars of shares of each Mag7 stock.
I'd like to make a technical note about markets because I see this mistake repeated in the comments. The money doesn't have to move out of the US markets to somewhere else for the stock market to crash. It only requires a destruction of confidence. For a hypothetical example, suppose the S&P 500 closes at 7000 on a Friday, and everyone loses confidence in the S&P 500 over the weekend (for whatever reason). The market can open on Monday 3500 with not a share traded before the open (no money was moved out of the market), and investor portfolio values are now cut in half. Since confidence is broken, nobody buys the dip, and the market closes Monday down to 3000.
It's an extreme example, but it's worth understanding the fundamental underpinnings. The markets are a confidence game. Sometimes we forget because we have good reason to be confident (e.g. in the S&P 500) and so it fades into the background that something like this could even happen, but it's not hard find these sorts of events in history.
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#618> So, perhaps we won? Perhaps we built our markets so stable that they are these days impervious? That sounds silly on its face, and the two reasons I’d actually give are:
> 1. Markets are just slower moving than ever before, big players just like to sit on their big piles of money
> 2. There are one or more bubbles in the stock market. Almost everyone agrees that AI is a bubble. It funds itself in a circular fashion, and capex cannot be recovered with profits any time soon, even with optimistic outlooks.
It’s a bit of both. The impact of political instability in the US (read: Trump pissing off as many people as possible) may not be felt in the markets quickly, if even within his term. He has severely dented confidence in the US as a trading partner and as an arbiter of the global rules-based order. That will have decades-long implications, the result being a pivot away from dollar-denominated commodities trading, and export markets for US goods being increasingly unfriendly. The value of the dollar will probably decline, and in fact that is a goal of many in his administration. That could actually be good for US equities if it’s in moderation.
The biggest risk I see is flight of capital away from US treasuries, which would drive up interest rates, leading to a sovereign debt crisis in the US. The likely solution to that would be money printing and resultant inflation. The high treasuries rate would drag capital away from equities.
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#619Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if the rise in index funds is a bubble on its own? It's massive and increasing amounts of money that is not price sensitive and keeps growing. There's an underlying bubble message: "the stock market always bounces back, so keep plowing your money into it even when it's down". Apparently passive funds are 60% of mutual funds / ETFs now https://www.avantisinvestors.com/avantis-insights/has-passiv... Even more insi…
US stock market index funds will crash when the US stock market crashes. That will require very large sums of capital to decide to move away from US capital markets. To give an idea of how much money would need to move - VTSAX alone is about $2.1 trillion, with hundreds of billions of dollars of shares of each Mag7 stock. You basically need the world to decide that EMEA/JAP markets are collectively stronger than the…
All assets are correlated. When the stock market inevitably crashes, and it will, we just don't know when, so will other world stock markets. And the cycle will repeat.
Capital is not going to "move away from US capital markets" because those markets tend to over-perform and will likely still over-perform. What companies are you investing in that are not nVidia, Google, Amazon, Meta, Apple, Open-AI, Anthropic etc. etc.?
It's really hard to predict market crashes. I think it makes sense to be more cautious but also that's what could have been said a year or 2 or 5 years ago, in which case you would have missed a lot of potential gains.
Re: Surely the crash of the US economy has to be soon
#620Earlier quoted context omitted.
US stock market index funds will crash when the US stock market crashes. That will require very large sums of capital to decide to move away from US capital markets. To give an idea of how much money would need to move - VTSAX alone is about $2.1 trillion, with hundreds of billions of dollars of shares of each Mag7 stock. You basically need the world to decide that EMEA/JAP markets are collectively stronger than the…
> US stock market index funds will crash when the US stock market crashes. That will require very large sums of capital to decide to move away from US capital markets. To give an idea of how much money would need to move - VTSAX alone is about $2.1 trillion, with hundreds of billions of dollars of shares of each Mag7 stock. I'd like to make a technical note about markets because I see this mistake repeated in the com…
Correct. The price of the market is the price people are willing to pay. It is not directly related to the move of capital. That said prices are also a function of supply and demand, if there is no demand (e.g.) for US stocks then it is more likely price will go down. If everyone wants to sell US and buy Europe, e.g. because they think the European competitors to Apple, Google, Amazon, nVidia and such will outperform, then presumably the prices at which those companies trade will trend down.