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Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

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Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#611

Post by perrygeo »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #588
Aurornis wrote: post #325

Vitamin D and Omega-3 are the two supplements that consistently appear to be super powerful in small studies and then fail to do anything significant at all in larger studies. Pause for a moment and consider the mere plausibility of the claims in the first few paragraphs: The effect size for antidepressants is 0.4, but the effect size for Vitamin D is 1.8? Are we to believe that Vitamin D supplements have an effect s…

I believe presenting vitamin D supplements as effective in treating depression is kinda misleading. It's rather vitamin D deficiency that is super effective at making you miserable, but it's not the only thing that can do it to you. And since a lot of us are in fact deficient (and the threshold of being categorized as deficient may be placed too low too), it will appear as being quite effective overall, especially co…

Thank you. Fixing a vitamin deficiency is an obvious benefit to physical health. But does it "cure depression"? To the extent that your depression was caused by vitamin deficiency, sure. But then didn't you just cure a vitamin deficiency? I'm sure a lot of things starting improving once your body starts getting proper nutrients after years of neglect! That doesn't indicate causality.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#612

Post by wolvoleo »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #586
isoprophlex wrote: post #43

Because it's common to hate on antidepressants, I've always personally had a bias against them. For the past 15-20 years, november thru february are basically a writeoff due for me due to seasonal affective disorder. Cold showers, exercise, no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. Vitamin d. I can still sleep 11 hours and feel like reheated cat shit. Enter citalopram. "It will take up to six weeks to dial in" they said.…

> Cold showers, ... no alcohol, strict sleeping rituals. I feel like doing those three things would make me feel like reheated cat shit, regardless of the weather outside.

They do for me too. Alcohol gives me a huge downer the next day but the party itself is amazing so I just waste the day after with a pillow over my head.

And I hate strict rules and rituals, I love chaos. So that also gets me down. I often stay up till 6am (the parties I mentioned above only start at midnight)

So yah it might make some people better but for me the times I break it are the ones that are exceptionally good.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#613

Post by seba_dos1 »

perrygeo wrote: post #611
seba_dos1 wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe presenting vitamin D supplements as effective in treating depression is kinda misleading. It's rather vitamin D deficiency that is super effective at making you miserable, but it's not the only thing that can do it to you. And since a lot of us are in fact deficient (and the threshold of being categorized as deficient may be placed too low too), it will appear as being quite effective overall, especially co…

Thank you. Fixing a vitamin deficiency is an obvious benefit to physical health. But does it "cure depression"? To the extent that your depression was caused by vitamin deficiency, sure. But then didn't you just cure a vitamin deficiency? I'm sure a lot of things starting improving once your body starts getting proper nutrients after years of neglect! That doesn't indicate causality.

As far as we can tell, "depression" is a label we put onto a big bag of issues with similar symptoms, but that may require different interventions. Vitamin D deficiency may very well be or lead to one of those, and it definitely doesn't help when coexisting with something else either.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#614

Post by fjordofnorway »

Aurornis wrote: post #325

Vitamin D and Omega-3 are the two supplements that consistently appear to be super powerful in small studies and then fail to do anything significant at all in larger studies. Pause for a moment and consider the mere plausibility of the claims in the first few paragraphs: The effect size for antidepressants is 0.4, but the effect size for Vitamin D is 1.8? Are we to believe that Vitamin D supplements have an effect s…

That's an odd argument. If we are talking about a organ safe uncombined dosage of Tylenol or Ibuprofen being 0.4 then I think we are talking about the point just above placebo and bias where something barely has a real effect that should be hard to measure without a high power study. That's saying nothing useful with so few significant figures.

If antidepressants cost less than $4/1000 and acted as an antiinflammatory as their only common side effect then sure I'd consider replacing Ibuprofen as my pain placebo of choice.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#615

Post by Murfalo »

andruby wrote: post #277
Murfalo wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth about antidepressants is that the majority of people with depression that respond to an antidepressant would also have responded to a placebo. This doesn't mean that their depression isn't real or that antidepressants "don't work". It just means that placebo has a relatively high response rate in trials for depression. The hate is (among other points) because they are only arguably, marginally, better than…

> The truth about antidepressants is that the majority of people with depression that respond to an antidepressant would also have responded to a placebo. ^ citation needed What does "would have responded" mean? Are you saying that >50% of people with depression that are "helped" by antidepressant, would have been helped _to a similar extend_ with a placebo?

Two papers that might be of interest to people regarding this topic would be Kirsch 2014 and Cipriani 2018.

And yes, agreed with argwhat.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#616

Post by greygoo222 »

thisislife2 wrote: post #487
dghlsakjg wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that falls on the side of “depression is real and antidepressants can help” it is very clear that there are people in this thread that need to hold their tongues because they know not of what they speak. (Not you OP) There are some forms of depression that you cannot think or act your way out of. If you haven’t experienced that, I promise that you do not understand what it is like. You cannot really unders…

There are indeed some form of serious depression that are non-responsive to psychotherapy alone. Those are however not the norm. Dr. David D Burns, practising psychiatrist and author of the book Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy has written a whole chapter in it on the appropriate use case and effectiveness of anti-depressants today. (If you are considering using anti-depressants, I urge everyone to get the latest r…

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Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#617

Post by ImJamal »

Aurornis wrote: post #325

Vitamin D and Omega-3 are the two supplements that consistently appear to be super powerful in small studies and then fail to do anything significant at all in larger studies. Pause for a moment and consider the mere plausibility of the claims in the first few paragraphs: The effect size for antidepressants is 0.4, but the effect size for Vitamin D is 1.8? Are we to believe that Vitamin D supplements have an effect s…

> nobody noticed this massive discrepancy until now?

People constantly say you should do three things if you are depressed. Go outside (vitamin D), exercise and socialize.

Often times exercising occurs outside as well.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#618

Post by zamalek »

CGMthrowaway wrote: post #534
Aurornis wrote: post #325

Vitamin D and Omega-3 are the two supplements that consistently appear to be super powerful in small studies and then fail to do anything significant at all in larger studies. Pause for a moment and consider the mere plausibility of the claims in the first few paragraphs: The effect size for antidepressants is 0.4, but the effect size for Vitamin D is 1.8? Are we to believe that Vitamin D supplements have an effect s…

> Vitamin D and Omega-3 are the two supplements that consistently appear to be super powerful in small studies and then fail to do anything significant at all in larger studies. That statement is broadly true for most outcomes studied, but specifically for depression the larger study results are pretty mixed. VITAL (the heavily cited metastudy) shows no effect. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32749491/ But there are…

I'm surprised that metastudies are inconsistent. Vit D and O-3 probably do have a large effect in a deficient populace (so, like, Seattle or landlocked areas respectively). Metastudies should be good at mitigating that (but I guess you can choose the studies that coincide with the outcome you want).

Either way, the conclusion to this whole debate is incredibly simple: get a blood panel done and go from there - it might not even be one of these that ails you.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#619

Post by compounding_it »

anonymous344 wrote: post #171
compounding_it wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who tried citalopram escitalopram and sertraline, along with venlaflaxine and fluvoximine, I would suggest doing a pharmacological test for psychiatric medications. I am an intermediate metabolized for the first three and the ones I was on most long. It did not suit me and made my orgasms go from ‘wtf’ to ‘that’s it?’ And they are still not normal 2 years after discontinuation. I am still depressed and anx…

look my other comment for niacin

That’s B3 for nerve and dna repair if I understand correctly.

I notice a difference after eating non vegetarian food but since I also have IBS, my absorption can be a hit or miss.

A very balanced and nutrient rich diet with good sleep and exercise is the start to mental health recovery. People often forget how important all this is.

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#620

Post by ajolly »

Projectiboga wrote: post #531
Wojtkie wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The neurotransmitter model of mental illness is largely incorrect. It's much more complex than just "Depressives have less serotonin, therefore lets give a reuptake-inhibitor to keep serotonin in the brain".

The creator of the Serotonin hypothesis admitted it was wrong, and he shifted to melatonin's precursor later in his career. The challange with any research in this area is Serotonin and Melatonin both affect biological functions by gradient activity not lock and key receptor models. This pair is how plants and animals respond to seasonal changes which vary year to year. Serotonin is the warm and light lide melatonin…

Explain the no glasses part to me? I read the study you linked but in there they used opaque glasses.
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