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I'm returning my Framework 16

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#611

Post by Dylan16807 »

wkat4242 wrote: post #588
brookst wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lamenting market taste and the resulting mass market designs is basically yelling at clouds. Simple fact is that most people have different priorities than the “make everything upgradable” crowd would like. That’s not going to change. Why would 90% of the market “unite” with 10% who want a totally different set of tradeoffs? It’s like asking that all car buyers unite and demand manual transmissions in every car. I lo…

> It’s like asking that all car buyers unite and demand manual transmissions in every car. I love manual cars, but I recognize most people do not want that for most of their driving. So why would the majority demand this feature that they don’t actually want, and which would not be a better experience for most? Um that's like the status quo in Europe lol. We all drive manual here. it's not that unlikely. Automatics a…

Driving it is different from demanding it. What percent of people in Europe would pay more for manual?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#612

Post by mhluongo »

filleduchaos wrote: post #378
PKop wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do this on virtually every non-soldered laptop why is this presented as some unique feature?

I'm starting to realise that many of Framework's strongest soldiers have probably never touched a laptop other than a MacBook or similar in decades. The ability to upgrade the motherboard is niche yet genuinely cool, but instead I keep seeing breathless announcements of RAM and SSD upgrades as if no-one has ever heard of those before.

Direct counterpoint: I've been a Dell XPS 13 stan for years (owned 3), and my other laptop today is a System 76. I've run IT for labs at a major university (Georgia Tech), across Windows, RHEL, and MacOS. I've been a desktop Linux user since 2006, both personally and professionally.

Across those, I've repaired plenty of laptops. I mentioned the RAM above because it's recent, and because it's easy. And I don't just mean physically easy - I mean I can find the part with a quick search, and it's just like any other ecommerce thing. That's a big shift from figuring out how to upgrade most laptops, where your top search result is a forum post or pushing you to talk to a tech.

Not breathless, but it is a breath of fresh air.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#613

Post by Rebelgecko »

sillystuff wrote: post #159
Rebelgecko wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Framework seems to get worse battery life on Linux than Windows. Different tools like powertop help close the gap, but inevitably if I put the framework in a bag for a week, it'll be dead when I take it out

If your laptop is using a recent AMD Ryzen based SoC: ACPI C4 power state (for powering down more of the SoC during S0ix suspend) is not supported on Linux yet, for recent (last couple years) AMD processors. Patches submitted for 6.18 were described as "laying the foundation for AMD C4 support". So, maybe won't be fully supported until 6.19 or even later; Sorry, I haven't followed up to see what has actually landed.

I have one of the older ones. I think there's a way to set up "real" hibernation on Linux but it seems like a pain in the ass

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#614

Post by Rebelgecko »

deryilz wrote: post #199
Rebelgecko wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Framework seems to get worse battery life on Linux than Windows. Different tools like powertop help close the gap, but inevitably if I put the framework in a bag for a week, it'll be dead when I take it out

If you're going to put it in a bag for a week, why not use some kind of hibernation feature?

You have to muck around with your disk partitions on Linux (although windows I think supports it out of the box)... I haven't spent enough time researching it to feel confident I can do it without borking my system

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#615

Post by Kon5ole »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #369
lotsofpulp wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the costs of milling a solid piece of aluminum that precisely and in those quantities can be “it”. https://youtu.be/lJx6cF-H__I I am not an expert, but it seems to be an engineering achievement, given that no one else does it. I doubt milling methods are patent protected, but rather Apple can use its volume and vertical integration to drive costs down and spend more on the chassis than other laptop designers.

Apple is #4 in laptop sales. Lenovo, Dell and HP each have at least as much volume. Apple also has higher margins than those companies, implying that any cost savings they make on other components aren't making it into the price anyway. It's probably just that it costs a little more to do it and most customers wouldn't pay a premium to have it.

>Apple is #4 in laptop sales. Lenovo, Dell and HP each have at least as much volume.

True but they divide their sales among several models. Gaming models, 2-in-1s, 13" to 17" and so on. Apple not only has fewer models they often keep the same case design between generations which also benefits economies of scale.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#616

Post by tourmalinetaco »

piskov wrote: post #608
tourmalinetaco wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not. The MacBook Air can easily thermal throttle under any sustained load because they went with a fanless design. It may work for casual usage, but it also negates at least half of your claims. Screen cracking was ~4 years ago for M1 laptops, which also included Apple making screen repairs far more difficult, exacerbating the problems they’re currently being sued over. They did separate NAND from the rest of…

I don’t know what “fragile” things you are talking about. I have both air m1 and 16 m1 pro. Neither me nor anyone I know have issues with these laptops. Of course air is for your average Joe. And even then I transcode videos on air.

M1 macbooks are known to have fragile screens, there are multiple class action lawsuits over it. Just because you, anecdotally, have not had issues does not mean they don’t exist.

And the average Joe is far better off with a newer laptop with the same performance for 1/3rd the price. The M1 Air will be out of updates in 2 years, requiring whoever’s listening to your advice to either suffer with an insecure laptop or to spend another grand or more on a new laptop.

Apple has no unique benefits for the average person, and in fact a Chromebook fulfills the average user’s needs perfectly fine.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#617

Post by Saris »

bee_rider wrote: post #452
goku12 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading t…

Isn’t “reuse the PSU” kind of a tempting trap? I though it was—a cheap part that can take down the rest of your expensive system. I though the advice was to get a new one with each build…

I've been on the same PSU for I think 13 years now, its currently running my Ryzen 7 3700x and RTX4070 desktop. I suppose if its not a great quality PSU or its already suspected of causing issues then replacing is a good idea.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#618

Post by piskov »

tourmalinetaco wrote: post #616
piskov wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know what “fragile” things you are talking about. I have both air m1 and 16 m1 pro. Neither me nor anyone I know have issues with these laptops. Of course air is for your average Joe. And even then I transcode videos on air.

M1 macbooks are known to have fragile screens, there are multiple class action lawsuits over it. Just because you, anecdotally, have not had issues does not mean they don’t exist. And the average Joe is far better off with a newer laptop with the same performance for 1/3rd the price. The M1 Air will be out of updates in 2 years, requiring whoever’s listening to your advice to either suffer with an insecure laptop or…

You should stop watching youtube channels.

Consider the number of m1 laptops manufactured and then the number of claims.

Regarding, the “fragile screens” — find me one that ended at least with a settlement and not dismissed.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#619

Post by tourmalinetaco »

piskov wrote: post #618
tourmalinetaco wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M1 macbooks are known to have fragile screens, there are multiple class action lawsuits over it. Just because you, anecdotally, have not had issues does not mean they don’t exist. And the average Joe is far better off with a newer laptop with the same performance for 1/3rd the price. The M1 Air will be out of updates in 2 years, requiring whoever’s listening to your advice to either suffer with an insecure laptop or…

You should stop watching youtube channels. Consider the number of m1 laptops manufactured and then the number of claims. Regarding, the “fragile screens” — find me one that ended at least with a settlement and not dismissed.

> You should stop watching youtube channels.

Why? Because they say things you don’t like?

> Consider the number of m1 laptops manufactured and then the number of claims.

Consider the fact that most consumers wouldn‘t file a claim even if they were eligible—the FTC finds that only about 5-10% of affected consumers actually participate in class actions. And considering there‘s multiple class actions over different models of the laptops, that signifies a decent chunk of users.

> Regarding, the “fragile screens” — find me one that ended at least with a settlement and not dismissed.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/vancouver/article/apple-ordered-to-pa...

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#620

Post by piskov »

tourmalinetaco wrote: post #619
piskov wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should stop watching youtube channels. Consider the number of m1 laptops manufactured and then the number of claims. Regarding, the “fragile screens” — find me one that ended at least with a settlement and not dismissed.

> You should stop watching youtube channels. Why? Because they say things you don’t like? > Consider the number of m1 laptops manufactured and then the number of claims. Consider the fact that most consumers wouldn‘t file a claim even if they were eligible—the FTC finds that only about 5-10% of affected consumers actually participate in class actions. And considering there‘s multiple class actions over different mode…

This is not class-action. It’s a single case.

> the FTC finds that only about 5-10% of affected consumers actually participate in class actions

So if ballpark is at least 15-20 million macbooks per year, what is your estimate of defected units per year? :-)

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