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We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

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Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#611

Post by crazygringo »

astura wrote: post #600
crazygringo wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that. If the transaction is over $10,000 it needs to be reported to the IRS. Dealers are often involved on the financing side directly, and their systems are just set up to require a Social Security number to put anything into the system. So because of the financing, some of these "know your customer" rules apply, and they automatically get applied to everyone as universal policy -- employe…

>It's more complicated than that. No, It's absolutely not. Like i said, I've bought multiple cars with personal checks, all over $10,000, never gave SSN or had credit check. Unless it's some sort of local law, it's a ridiculous policy. Find another dealer. >Dealers are often involved on the financing side directly, and their systems are just set up to require a Social Security number to put anything into the system.…

I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Different dealerships will have different tolerances for risk, including allowing employees to bypass standardized requirements. I'm not making anything up, just explaining what's most likely going on with this particular dealership, and how it's not unusual.

If your dealership is letting you drive off with a vehicle with a personal check (not even a cashier's) and without any kind of credit check or database identity verification, that's actually pretty wild. I assume you know the owner or salesperson personally. Otherwise, you could be a rando passing them a forged check, and then they'll be out both cash and car. I don't know many businesses willing to take that $10K+ risk.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#612

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

makeitdouble wrote: post #604
StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure is good being a foreigner in an autocratic country. You are most likely there there for business. You don’t really care about anything because you will leave anyway. Most of my coworkers in Singapore were all like that. Who cares about the mass deportation of bus drivers after their strikes for better working condition? Why look at what’s behind the curtain when you can enjoy the pool? I have met people who h…

> Then life is not ok at all and there is approximately nothing you can do about it. To return to parent's point, we want to say it applies only in autocratic countries, when we have similar pockets of despair as well. Not everyone can just "fight the man" if they feel prayed upon or abused. Most here can probably solve critical issues with money or even move countries if/when shit hits the fan. But lower social clas…

It certainly is. I’m not pretending that liberal democracies are perfect. Ensuring that the one with the least power or at the margin don’t become victims and remain free is a constant struggle but people are fighting it. It can be a dispiriting one when you go through times like the one of the USA are currently traversing

It would be a deep mistake however to fall from the traditional defence of illiberal countries and think that the imperfection of liberal democracies somehow make authoritarian countries as legitimate and acceptable. Oppression there is not an imperfection. It is the system working as designed.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#613

Post by cyanydeez »

Levitz wrote: post #594
BriggyDwiggs42 wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The left has… vastly less power than the right, especially the christian right, because the right has money.

Money? More money than Hollywood? California? Both of which lean left pretty hard? It's not 1980 anymore. "Vastly less power", pray tell, would you rather piss on a Christian cross and post it on social media or a LGBT flag? What do you think would have worse consequences? Can you even imagine a prevalence of corporations showing to align themselves with the Christian right for a month every year? The "Christian righ…

People who are afraid of the "left authoritarians" seem to think that you can just sum up human history and cherry pick some great "left-branded" authoritarian and equate that to todays.

You're arguing that the people kidnapping people without due process and zero consequences, masked police, are equal to some arbitrary "leftist" in some time that's not relevant to todays political climate.

It truly is bizarre how mental gymnasts survive in this logical incapacity.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#614

Post by fullshark »

specproc wrote: post #335
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

Yeah, this is it. I've lived under governments of a variety of different stripes in some very different parts of the world, I've lived in war zones. Day to day life has been more or less the same across all of them. You go shopping, go to work, see friends, have a few beers or maybe a smoke, eat out, go to weddings, birthdays and funerals, play sports. People run businesses, post memes. The way non-OECD, "non-democra…

The huge volume of immigration, both where people leave and where they go to reveals this to be false. The experience may be similar for whatever class you belong to, but the reality is demand to live in western democracies is massive for a reason.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#615

Post by causal »

hiatus wrote: post #607
causal wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many examples were given, please read the linked article. And again, in a society where everything is monetized, you can argue that creditworthiness is a just proxy for anything. So if basic water and electric access or housing access can be, so can anything else where you pay money for a service. You could argue dating apps should have access to credit scores and I wouldn't be surprised if some tried. > Which instit…

What do you think credit is? Anytime someone gives you something and you pay later on, that's on credit. They have to trust you to some extent. If every vendor had to perform due diligence of every potential client I would expect things to get even more expensive or just altogether deny service to people outright.

Then in a subscription economy- where having a poor credit score can result in loss of housing, insurance, and more- opaque unelected beureaus are wielding tremendous power. Perhaps they are not evil or even unfair, but if you'll recall the context of TFA, it bears many of the same failure modes of a social credit system, and will only be as good as the people regulating it.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#616

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

lurk2 wrote: post #590
sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost like increasing the speed and discarding process safeguards increases the rate of error! Imagine that! Who could have predicted?

This style of commentary is incredibly obnoxious and doesn’t belong here.

Pardon, I'm a little too distracted by the fascism to care much for decorum these days.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#617

Post by refurb »

StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #576
specproc wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is it. I've lived under governments of a variety of different stripes in some very different parts of the world, I've lived in war zones. Day to day life has been more or less the same across all of them. You go shopping, go to work, see friends, have a few beers or maybe a smoke, eat out, go to weddings, birthdays and funerals, play sports. People run businesses, post memes. The way non-OECD, "non-democra…

It sure is good being a foreigner in an autocratic country. You are most likely there there for business. You don’t really care about anything because you will leave anyway. Most of my coworkers in Singapore were all like that. Who cares about the mass deportation of bus drivers after their strikes for better working condition? Why look at what’s behind the curtain when you can enjoy the pool? I have met people who h…

Precisely.

It's easy living as a foreigner in autocratic countries. You've got a "get out of jail" card called a foreign passport which not only protects you for political reasons, but also gives you an escape hatch for any reason, government or not.

For locals its entirely different. You don't get the "they're a foreigner, so be nice". Victim of crime? Don't bother with the police unless you have a fat bribe. Ripped off in your business? The courts won't care. Accused of a crime? Bribes are your only recourse.

So yes, the mundane day to day is the same, but when problems pop up the difference is like night and day. In authoritarian country you're at the complete mercy of those with more power than you.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#618

Post by refurb »

Barrin92 wrote: post #563
rafaelmn wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Day to day life has been more or less the same across all of them. This is a wild take, unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way. If I call the prime minister a criminal liar - worst that will happen is I get a defamation lawsuit. In authoritarian countries I go to a prison camp, and the neighbors are the one to report me. Even if I'm not political - if step on toes of people in…

>unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way. this is what 99% of people spend 99% of their time on. If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet. This is why China makes the claim tha…

> This is why China makes the claim that it is actually more democratic[1]. This is not merely propaganda.

That absolutely is propaganda.

The very fact that you can't have any political party of the CCP makes it undemocratic.

However hard China tries to change the definition of "democracy", won't change that fact.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#619

Post by refurb »

coldtea wrote: post #330
mattnewton wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west Okay but that is exactly why I would prefer a western liberal government. It is better and that is ideal is worth criticizing authoritarians for, and fighting to keep in the west.

In certain things it can be better. Singapore might be a state run authoritatively with the same party in power for 60 years, but you're free to walk around at any time without fear of any crime happening to you. Or public projects that "just work" where in the "western liberal" case their deteriorate or are tied up in bureucracy. And life if "you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble" is…

This is the same argument from Mussolini's facists - "at least the trains run on time".

I'm unmoved by the argument. If the choice comes down between "the trains run on time" and "I can arbitrarily imprisons for my speech", I'd happily live with trains that don't run on time.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#620

Post by dwd »

verzali wrote: post #301
dwd wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Near instantaneous credit checks is their business model, and they operate worldwide. Their business replies on collecting and storing vast troves of data that influence your credit score. Were the likes of Experian and Equifax taken out of the credit system, you would see a massive credit crunch as every business that relies on them would have to manually verify anyone's credit score (which could introduce a whole n…

What do you mean they operate worldwide? There are many countries that operate without credit scores.

The credit score provided by someone like Equifax is just a number - cheap and quickly requested via an API. And yes, bureaus don't have operations in every country - but my point was that credit scores don't just exist in the US.

Take the Netherlands, they don't use scores; rather you would request a report that details any known factors that influence creditworthiness.

The difference is: - the score is a simple weighting (0-1000) that is systematically calculated by the bureau. - Without a score provided, you have to make a judgment yourself on that individual's creditworthiness from their report.

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