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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

asteriskmag.com

611–620 of 947 posts

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#611
post #597

I think the comments here have been overly harsh. I have friends in the community and have visited the LessWrong "campus" several times. They seemed very welcoming, sincere, and were kind and patient even when I was basically asserting that several of their beliefs were dumb (in hopefully somewhat respectful manner). As for the AI doomerism, many in the community have more immediate and practical concerns about AI, h…

> They seemed very welcoming, sincere, and were kind and patient even when I was basically asserting that several of their beliefs were dumb

I don't think LessWrong is a cult (though certainly some of their offshoots are) but it's worth pointing out this is very characteristic of cult recruiting.

For cultists, recruiting cult fodder is of overriding psychological importance--they are sincere, yes, but the consequences are not what you and I would expect from sincere people. Devotion is not always advantageous.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#612

This article is beautifully written, and it's full of proper original research. I'm sad that most comments so far are knee-jerk "lol rationalists" type responses. I haven't seen any comment yet that isn't already addressed in much more colour and nuance in the article itself.

The contrarian dynamic strikes again! https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

(I'm referring to how this comment, objecting to the other comments as unduly negative, has been upvoted to the top of the thread.)

(p.s. this is not a criticism!)

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting point you make there — one would assume that if recursive self-improvement were a thing, Nature would have already lead humans into that "hall of mirrors".

Well, arguably that's exactly where we are, but machines can evolve faster. And that's an entire new angle that the cultists are ignoring... because superintelligence may just not be very valuable. And we don't need superintelligence for smart machines to be a problem anyway. We don't need even AGI. IMO, there's no reason to focus on that.

> machines can evolve faster

[Squinty Thor] "Do they though?"

I think it's valuable to challenge this popular sentiment every once-in-a-while. Sure, it's a good poetic metaphor, but when you really start comparing their "lifecycle" and change-mechanisms to the swarming biological nanobots that cover the Earth, a bunch of critical aspects just aren't there or are being done to them rather than by them.

At least for now, these machines mostly "evolve" in the same sense that fashionable textile pants "evolve".

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… however, even that is up for debate. Maybe the TV actor in your own example is Al Gore filming An Inconvenient Truth and the environmental scientist was in the minority which isn’t so afraid of climate change. Fast forward to 2025, the scientist’s minority position was wrong, while Al Gore’s documentary was legally ruled to have 9 major errors; so you were stupid on both sides, with the TV actor being closer.

True, but this is where the Boolean nature of traditional logic can really trip up a person trying to operate in the real world. These "maybes" are on the table. They are probably not the case. (You end up with a spread of likelihoods and have to decide what to do with them. And law hates a spread of likelihoods and hates decision-by-coinflips, so one can see how rhetorical traditions grounded in legal persuasion ten…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolo_contendere There you still have booleans, just two of them instead of one.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides, the explanation is simpler than this article makes it out to be- most rationalists are from California, California is the origin of lots of cults This isn't the defense of rationalism you seem to imagine it to be. I don't think the modal rationalist is sinister. I think he's ignorant, misguided, nearly wholly lacking in experience, deeply insecure about it, and overall just excessively resistant to the ide…

> his perspective radically to lack merit What perspective would that be?

None in particular, as of course you realize, being a fluent reader of this language. It was just a longwinded way of saying rationalists suck at noticing when they're wrong about something because they rarely really know much of anything in the first place. That's why you had to take that scrap of a phrase so entirely out of context, when you went looking for something to try to embarrass me with.

Why? Which perspective of yours has you so twitchingly desperate to defend it?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#616

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

all of science would makes sense if it wasn't for that 1 pesky miracle

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#617

Has anyone here ever been a part of a cult? If so, got anything to share - anecdotes, learnings, cautions, etc.? I am never planning to be part of one; just interested to know, partly because I have lived adjacent to what might be one, at times.

There was this interview with Diane Benscoter who talked about her experience and reasons for joining a cult that I found very insightful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ibk5vJ-4-o The main point is that it isn't so much the cult (leader) so much as the victims being in a vulnerable mental state getting exploited.

will check out the video, thanks.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#618
I think everyone should be familiar with hermeticism because its various mystery cults have been with us since Hermes Trismegistus laid down its principles in Ancient Egypt on the Emerald Tablets. It was where early science like practices like alchemy originated, but that wheat got separated out from the chaff during the renaissance and the more coercive control aspects remained. That part, how to get people to follow you and fight for you and maintain a leadership hierarchy is extremely old technology.

They essentially use this glitch in human psychology that gets exploited over and over again. The glitch is a more generalized version of the advanced fee scam. You tell people that if we just believe something can be true, it can be true. Then we discriminate against people who don't believe in that thing. We then say only the leader(s) can make that thing true, but first you must give them all your power and support so they can fight the people who don't believe in that thing.

Unfortunately, reality is much more messy than the cult leaders would have you believe, and leaders often don't have their followers best interests at heart, especially those who follow blindly, or even the ability to make the thing true that everyone wants to be true, but use it as this white rabbit that everyone in the cult has to chase after forever.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find Yudowsky-style rationalists morbidly fascinating in the same way as Scientologists and other cults. Probably because they seem to genuinely believe they're living in a sci-fi story. I read a lot of their stuff, probably too much, even though I find it mostly ridiculous. The biggest nonsense axiom I see in the AI-cult rationalist world is recursive self-improvement. It's the classic reason superintelligence tak…

> it assumes that soon LLMs will gain the capability of assisting humans No, it does not. It assumes there will be progress in AI. It does not assume that progress will be in LLMs It doesn't require AI to be better than humans for AI to take over because unlike a human an AI can be cloned. You have have 2 AIs, then 4, then 8.... then millions. All able to do the same things as humans (the assumption of AGI). Build ca…

> It does not assume that progress will be in LLMs

If that's the case then there's not as much reason to assume that this progress will occur now, and not years from now; LLMs are the only major recent development that gives the AI 2027 scenario a reason to exist.

> You have have 2 AIs, then 4, then 8.... then millions

The most powerful AI we have now is strictly hardware-dependent, which is why only a few big corporations have it. Scaling it up or cloning it is bottlenecked by building more data centers.

Now it's certainly possible that there will be a development soon that makes LLMs significantly more efficient and frees up all of that compute for more copies of them. But there's no evidence that even state-of-the-art LLMs will be any help in finding this development; that kind of novel research is just not something they're any good at. They're good at doing well-understood things quickly and in large volume, with small variations based on user input.

> But the thought experiment doesn't seem indefensible.

The part that seems indefensible is the unexamined assumptions about LLMs' ability (or AI's ability more broadly) to jump to optimal human ability in fields like software or research, using better algorithms and data alone.

Take https://ai-2027.com/research/takeoff-forecast as an example: it's the side page of AI 2027 that attempts to deal with these types of objections. It spends hundreds of paragraphs on what the impact of AI reaching a "superhuman coder" level will be on AI research, and on the difference between the effectiveness of an organizations average and best researchers, and the impact of an AI closing that gap and having the same research effectiveness as the best humans.

But what goes completely unexamined and unjustified is the idea that AI will be capable of reaching "superhuman coder" level, or developing peak-human-level "research taste", at all, at any point, with any amount of compute or data. It's simply assumed that it will get there because the exponential curve of the recent AI boom will keep going up.

Skills like "research taste" can't be learned at a high level from books and the internet, even if, like ChatGPT, you've read the entire Internet and can see all the connections within it. They require experience, trial and error. Probably the same amount that a human expert would require, but even that assumes we can make an AI that can learn from experience as efficiently as a human, and we're not there yet.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#620
post #514
post #398

A very interesting read. My idea of these self-proclaimed rationalists was fifteen years out of date. I thought they’re people who write wordy fan fiction, but turns out they’ve reached the point of having subgroups that kill people and exorcise demons. This must be how people who had read one Hubbard pulp novel in the 1950s felt decades later when they find out he’s running a full-blown religion now. The article see…

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> And masks? How many graphs of cases/day with mask mandate transitions overlayed are required before people realize masks did nothing? Whole countries went from nearly nobody wearing them, to everyone wearing them, overnight, and COVID cases/day didn't even notice.

Most of those countries didn't actually follow their mask mandates - the USA for example. I visited because the PRC was preventing vaccine deliveries to Taiwan so I flew to the USA to get a vaccine, and I distinctly remember thinking "yeah... Of course" when walked around an airport of people chin diapering.

Taiwan halted a couple outbreaks from pilots completely, partially because people are so used to wearing masks when they're sick here (and also because the mask mandate was strictly enforced everywhere).

I visited DC a year later where they had a memorial for victims of COVID. It was 700,000 white flags near the Washington monument when I visited, as I recall it broke a million a few months later.

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