Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#611

Post by zahlman » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 11:22 PM UTC

anonymars wrote: post #577

zahlman wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telephone calls allow for near-instantaneous communication using voice while letters can (and could) take days to arrive and rely on writing. There is no comparison with using a computer vs. a cell phone to send messages over the Internet. It's even generally using all the same network protocols.

> There is no comparison with using a computer vs. a cell phone to send messages over the Internet. "Communicate outside the home" is a pretty vast difference > It's even generally using all the same network protocols. This whole thread was about proprietary iMessage

> "Communicate outside the home" is a pretty vast difference

It's genuinely baffling to me that people actually see things this way. When there is a social reason to be outside the house, I take that as a reason not to be staring at a glowing rectangle.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#612

Post by gilfoy » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 11:42 PM UTC

realusername wrote: post #592

reginald78 wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice I think he is right unfortunately. Most people would just run Chrome and more websites would require Chrome since they could just tell Apple users to deal with it, making the mono-culture even worse.

Less sites would do this is Safari wasn't the last non evergreen browser lagging behind everybody else. Maybe the answer from Apple should be to improve Safari instead of restricting competition.

I support Safari on a web app and have very rarely run into issues. It’s nothing like supporting even IE11 was.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#613

Post by DidYaWipe » Wed, Jul 02, 2025, 12:05 AM UTC

dcow wrote: post #609

DidYaWipe wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh really? Because this app seems to have good reviews: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/udp-tcp-network-utility/id6569... So, since UDP is allowed, I'm curious as to what non-HTTP traffic Apple bans apps from using.

You can’t listen for incoming traffic persistently.

Ah, that totally qualifies Apple as a gatekeeper to huge swaths of the Internet on par with Google, Amazon, and Meta.

I hope the DOJ adds this to the list of Apple's transgressions, along with green bubbles making Android kiddies feel bad.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#614

Post by DidYaWipe » Wed, Jul 02, 2025, 12:08 AM UTC

Nevermark wrote: post #603

DidYaWipe wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you did: "Try shipping a web browser not based on Apple’s browser functionality on iOS. See how free of gatekeeping the internet is." And no, it isn't. Not supporting certain browser features does not direct traffic or even deny access. So you obviously don't know what gatekeeping is.

Apple is denying access to browsers that support web features they don’t support themselves. Your argument, or attempt to make an argument, somehow neglects this obvious Apple created and enforced barrier.

It "neglects" a universe of equally irrelevant observations.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#615

Post by DidYaWipe » Wed, Jul 02, 2025, 12:13 AM UTC

BlueTemplar wrote: post #600

DidYaWipe wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? So does every game-console manufacturer. Buy a different one.

The difference is that we can easily try to pretend that game consoles are not general purpose computers. And doing so is not going to cause issues to the fabric of the society.

Hahaha, wow, OK. Then we must acknowledge that we're talking about PHONES here, and the applications on it are optional TOYS. The phone could have no app store at all, and still be highly functional and complete. In fact... that's how the iPhone launched. There was no app store for years.

Meanwhile, a game system with no games is not functional at all.

Might want to reconsider your argument here.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#616

Post by charcircuit » Wed, Jul 02, 2025, 12:47 AM UTC

lillecarl wrote: post #559

charcircuit wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>to all developers who want to access these people it's another thing Developers don't have a right to access other business's customers. If you want to sell jewelry you don't have a right to have your jewelry put into a nation wide jewelry store chain to be able to access most Americans. Customer relationships are a vary valuable asset of a business. >passively making 30% It's only passive if you ignore the billions…

It seems we're unable to find common ground. Many governments are pushing back and in the end they're the ones who decide and they don't like Apple taxing everything 30%. Do you also prefer lightning over USB-C?

I'm neutral on lightning. I don't know much about hardware so I have not formed a true opinion on them.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#617

Post by voltaireodactyl » Wed, Jul 02, 2025, 1:37 AM UTC

spogbiper wrote: post #544

davidjade wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, what happens when apps get removed from the iOS App Store and moved to another store for distribution? If people want to continue or need to use those apps then they would have to use these other app stores. What if those apps moved to other stores so they can skirt Apple's review and other consumer-friendly restrictions? How is that better for consumers that use Facebook, Insta, etc... for them to have apps…

A) this has not happened on Android, where 3rd party stores and side loading have always been possible B) if people truly value the Apple lock down system, they will not use applications that don't comply with the lock down system

Just fwiw, my understanding is that this has already happened on both Android and iOS (via TestFlight): https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/facebook-project-atlas/

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#618

Post by mjevans » Wed, Jul 02, 2025, 2:48 AM UTC

dcow wrote: post #525

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remixing off the shelf isn't really the issue if you want to compete, it's the fact that you wont even be able to buy the competitive components at all because they wont sell you them even if you ask and have the money.

That’s covered by the compulsory license part of the comment. Say Apple has a patent on the iPhone, Apple must license the iPhone itself to me at a reasonable fee. Then I can go sell jPhones all day to compete.

I don't think you could compete with the exact same product... the advantage of scale would still give Apple more than sufficient edge.

However if you happened to like E.G. Apple's screen, or camera, or another component that was better than what else could be selected it could be part of a design which competed on other merits. E.G. maybe the touch digitizer is just that much better, so it might make sense on some models of Android or some Libre phone more closely based on Linux or BSD. Or some company that makes an iPhone like device but to GOV spec standards for a given country. (In my mind, I'm thinking US Gov, but IP laws tend to be International too, so maybe Germany wants it's own secure phone.)

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#619

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Jul 02, 2025, 2:53 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #494

al_borland wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam and Android charge a similar 30% fee in their stores. When I hear about a 3% fee, I think of the interchange fees for a credit card. That doesn’t have the same overhead as hosting the software, handling the updates, managing the front end, reviews, etc. I can only assume that 2-3% of the 30% are going to Visa, as I’m sure Apple is paying interchange fees to process the payments. 30% probably still creates a ver…

I really despise the analogy with Steam. And this is not the first time I hear it. People somehow fail to understand that the core problem with the App Store is that it is operated by the platform owner. To bring the analogy in line with the App Store, imagine if: (1) Steam was operated by Microsoft, (2) Microsoft only allowed installation of games on Windows through Steam, and (3) Microsoft disallowed installation o…

> To bring the analogy in line with the App Store, imagine if: (1) Steam was operated by Microsoft, (2) Microsoft only allowed installation of games on Windows through Steam, and (3) Microsoft disallowed installation of alternate OSes on Microsoft PCs.

Not only that, because there are other ways to install an app than Steam, the 30% paid to Steam is paying for promotion within their system. Which is valuable because not all apps are available there, so paying for it makes you more likely to be noticed over someone who distributes for the same platform using an external means.

If an app store is the only way to install apps on a platform then everybody is paying the fee and therefore nobody is getting promoted over anybody else in exchange for it.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#620

Post by josephcsible » Wed, Jul 02, 2025, 2:56 AM UTC

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

> If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built?

Because once I buy your phone/tablet/whatever, it stops being yours and starts being mine, so I should be in charge of what software it can run from then on.