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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#611

Post by wordofx »

perlgeek wrote: post #79
ahartmetz wrote: post #26

Why though, what does it achieve? Do they want to make sure that there will be terrorists / freedom fighters in the future so that they have a reason not to negotiate? Because they expect to "win" if violence continues?

From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that 2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The cur…

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#612

Post by keutoi »

exodust wrote: post #504
rexpop wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> two ideologies which are so diametrically opposed to each other that they cannot coexist Ideologies aren't platonic solids. They must be constantly refurbished in the minds of the avowed. Every moment of every day informs them—reinforces or depletes them. Changes their character. It's guaranteed that these minds will, eventually, change. Who survives to bare this change remains to be seen. Keep in mind, also, that…

> "surface patina" Tell that to the victims of gleeful brutality under the guidance of fundamentalist ideology, like that engrained in Islamist governance and extremist militant groups. Your post reads like the come-down from intellectual pill-popping. Your attempt to dilute a serious problem in the world to "patinas" and reduce the problem to imperial vs colonized peoples, sounds like a manifesto from the lawns of a…

>The subjugation of "infidels" under expansionist oppressive religious groups with the intent to bring "peace" is an imperialism all of its own, but much worse. Peace... at the cost of freedom, autonomy, expression, equality.

Are you arguing for or against Israel?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#613

Post by ath3nd »

throw627004 wrote: post #580
maeil wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way. That it was really ingrained into the German culture to never let anything like the holocaust happen again. That the education system there was very good in really making people understand why it happened, what went wrong, and how to make sure there would be…

As a German, I think you should cut your colleague some slack. There's 8 billion people in the world who aren't German. If there's one topic that Germans don't chip in on, it won't move the needle. Whatever we as Germans say on Israel/Palestine will be taken the wrong way by someone. Critical of Israel? Still an antisemite! Supportive of Israel? Pathological guilt! It super sucks, but I too will leave it to others to…

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#614

Post by trhway »

alkyon wrote: post #608
trhway wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Maybe because it happened 1000 years ago and there are people being killed in Gaza at this very moment?

People being killed in Gaza are the colonizers isn't it? In addition to being colonizers they clearly declared the goal of performing ethnic cleansing of Jews, and proved that it isn't just words by perpetrating genocide of Jews on October 7.

You nicely sidestepped the case of US where Native people are still fighting for their rights and would be killed the same way if they try to perpetrate against Non-Native Americans the things like October 7.

Palestinians perpetrated October 7, Native Americans don't do such things, thus no surprise that the situation is different.

>Maybe because it happened 1000 years ago

So, how old or recent it should be for you to dismiss or not an ethnic cleansing?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#615

Post by 6510 »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #458
mpweiher wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of reason to disbelieve the testimony was reported accurately. Haaretz’s English edition claims that IDF soldiers were ordered to fire at unarmed Palestinians waiting for food in Gaza, but the original Hebrew version? It states they were told to fire towards crowds to keep them away from the aid sites. This represents a significant difference in intent, legality, and moral implications https://mrandre…

Who cares about the word used in that sentence. They also said they killed people every day by doing this. How is that explained away?

For you and me conversation is about facts, reality and accuracy. For them it is about bending the narrative as far as it will go. It's not strange behavior if everyone around you is doing it.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#616

Post by FireBeyond »

edanm wrote: post #526
FireBeyond wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't particularly like Israeli policy towards Palestinians for the last 15 years, but they were certainly not treated as "sub-human". Garbage. Gaza had its only airport bombed to oblivion 20 years ago and was told any attempt to repair it would result in the same. Its port has been blockaded by the Israeli navy for 15 years. Its only land exits have been heavily locked down. Israel will routinely turn electrici…

The Gazan government is a declared enemy of Israel, wanting its destruction. It has used hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to build its militant group to fight Israel. Given the circumstances, Gaza's neighbors blockade it to keep it from building an even bigger fighting force. > Israel will routinely turn electricity off to the country for days to punish for something, be it a rocket attack, You mean, when occas…

> You mean, when occasionally Hamas will try to kill random Israeli civilians using rocket fire? Which is basically a declaration of war and causes Israel to fight back?

Changing the goalposts, are we?

Yes, that happens.

How is Israel turning off electricity and fresh water to the entire country as a result not considered treating the population as sub-human (as in not deserving of basic human needs), the original point of this discussion ?

> If you think the blockade is the reason for their actions, then you're quite simply wrong - they were founded many years before and always had the same goal of destroying Israel, including working hard against the peace process that was forming between Israel and the eventual Palestinian Authority.

Oh, you're so close to the point! "The peace process forming between Israel and the eventual Palestinian Authority" is exactly why Netanyuhu and his ilk started supporting Hamas. Because when your explicitly stated goal is to evict Palestinians (and Netanyuhu has said as much, in as many words), global sympathy starts to wane when the PLA is looking for peaceful solutions (yes, admittedly, after periods of violence and terrorism) and now Israel looks like the bad guy. So let's prop up Hamas, because they are more extremist, and make a more convenient bad guy.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#617

Post by jopsen »

andrepd wrote: post #48
ahartmetz wrote: post #26

Why though, what does it achieve? Do they want to make sure that there will be terrorists / freedom fighters in the future so that they have a reason not to negotiate? Because they expect to "win" if violence continues?

Netanyahu has privately expressed preference for terrorist Hamas over political Fatah, and Israel has propped up those terrorist groups in the past (this is well documented not a conspiracy theory). Why? Because Netanyahu and a good chunk of the Israeli population want the Palestinians to cease to exist and its territory to be part of Israel. An opponent that wants to achieve its goals through political action and ap…

> to prevent any possibility of peaceful reconciliation

This seems like a feasible goal.

> and drive the Palestinians to eventual expulsion or eradication.

That strategy haven't worked for what 50 years, what makes anyone think it'll work anytime ever?

The Palestinians don't exactly have anywhere to go.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#618

Post by nozzlegear »

edanm wrote: post #546
nozzlegear wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "most likely be banned soon"? Banned from where, and by who?

I think he's referring to actions taken in Israel against Haaretz, e.g. cutting off government contact from Haaretz, etc.

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#619

Post by ckemere »

alluro2 wrote: post #177

I visited Israel for a sports seminar some ~10 years ago and met many nice people. I felt sympathetic to their reality of living in an ever-hostile environment from all sides, and struggle to keep their place in the world safe. I admired their resilience and strength. When this Gaza conflict started, I saw how the Israeli protested against their government and demanded peace, so I thought there is a semblance of an e…

I upvoted this article because it reminds me that there are Israelis who are opposed to what is going on. And newspapers that take risk to report on it. And maybe even military investigators trying to stop it.

It’s no different with the American military.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#620

Post by JumpCrisscross »

alkhatib wrote: post #208
originalvichy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can take out nuclear scientists thousands of kilometers away by either planting bombs in their cars in traffic or firing accurate munitions through their windows when they sleep. Thousands of kilometers away. The IDF can be highly sophisticated in their plans and methods when they want to.

Those things you described are also war crimes. Calling it sophisticated does not change that fact.

> Those things you described are also war crimes

No, it’s war. Targeted killing of a military scientist is war. Gunning down civilians trying to get food is a war crime. If we start labelling all war as criminal, the term loses all meaning.

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