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Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

telegraph.co.uk

611–620 of 1001 posts

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to have a long and easy retirement for your elderly, you need a growing population Or a population that can produce the same amount of stuff and services with fewer and fewer workers. Fortunately that's what capitalism excels at.

That's a nice way to restate that young people will have to produce more, and receive less. But tell me, what incentive do you have to produce more when you'll just have it snatched away to be given to someone else? Why not move to the U.S where your productivity will be rewarded, or just put in minimal effort?

Young workers will produce more regardless because people don't stop being innovative. The incentive to produce more is that economic surpluses improve the standard of living for everyone, including young workers.

Is it better that retirements are funded by this surplus from the increased productivity, or by direct taxation on the income of young workers? Income growth doesn't keep pace with productivity so it's an easy answer.

Taxing the income of current workers to directly fund current retirees is the real "snatching away what you produced". If more national pension plans invested in broad-based stock indexes instead they wouldn't need to take more and more money out of young people's pockets.

Capital ownership entitles you to its returns. Young workers typically don't own a lot of capital. So it comes down to either retirement plans owning it, which means young workers also get its returns when they retire. Or a small wealthy elite could own it all, and everyone else gets left out, reduced to moving a dollar from an youngsters pocket to a retiree.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#612
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, productivity has improved tremendously. It's not clear that we actually need everyone working.

Productivity improvements have been partially eaten up by cost of living increases. We don't need everyone working, but how do we decide who has to work and who gets stuff for free? Should workers pay higher taxes to support more retirees?

how are will still framing this as an ethical dilemma?! THE RICH should pay higher taxes to support retirees! there are people with hundreds of millions of dollars! we just turn down the dial labeled "how rich you get to be" until this shit gets figured out

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#613
post #423
post #409

This is truly sad. As a Swede I fear my country may follow suite. The retirement age in Sweden used to be 65 and now it's 67. Looking at older people around me, most lead a much less active life after 75. So, if we were lucky we used to have some 10 good years of doing whatever we wanted before old age and age-related diseases start affecting us so much we become limited to a much smaller world. But now we have maybe…

Back when it was first introduced, it was based on life expectancy and few were expected to live beyond retirement age. [1] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/how-ret...

Paywall.

But life expectancy at birth is not the same as life expectancy after hitting working age.

In 1900, if you made it to 10, on average you’d die at 63, meaning plenty lived well into their 70’s.

http://www.jbending.org.uk/stats3.htm

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans need a constant supply of resources and shelter to survive. There is no "system" which avoids this inconvenient fact. In the absence of any "system" at all, you would still need to constantly work for survival - and in fact you'd just die as soon as you were no longer able to do so due to illness or injury much less old age. In other words if there were no "system" there would be no such concept as "retirement…

That's true, I would never ever consider moving to the US for that reason alone. Our vacations are very generous and I always struggle to use them all up. I get about a month and a half effectively (if I take them all consecutively with weekends in between)

When I worked at bigco the US employees were remunerated a lot better but they only got 10 days off a year and were pressured to not take off more than 5...

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#615

It's utterly insane that people need to work more and longer as technology increases productivity. A truly dystopian economic system. In 1930 Keynes projected that by 2000 their grandchildren could work 15 hours per week¹. Now the projection is that we will work more and longer in the future. And what is this labor supposed to even do? How much of even current work really increases wellbeing? Graeber's thesis of bull…

We need a revolution already, it's overdue. Fuck this shit.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#616
post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Australia where individuals are expected to fund their own retirement, and the government pension is intended just as a back-up for those who are too poor to do so. Everyone has an investment account ("superannuation", or "super" for short) which is taxed at at a reduced tax rate, and your employer is required to pay 12% of your salary into it. There are many providers of such accounts ("superannuation fund…

> in Australia where individuals are expected to fund their own retirement, I'm looking at the official statistics, and this is not what they say: The government pension is the main source of income for 47% of retirees vs superannuation's 33%. Moreover, the proportion of those relying on the pension has increased between 2020 and 2022 by 3 pts. https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/labour/employment-and-unem...

> The government pension is the main source of income for 47% of retirees vs superannuation's 33%.

Yes, but that’s because the current superannuation system was only introduced in 1992, and when it was first introduced the mandatory contribution rate was only 3% (as opposed to 12% starting this year)-so a lot of current retirees had limited super because it didn’t exist for a big chunk of their working life, and then even when it did the contribution rates were arguably insufficient. Younger workers (20s/30s/40s) generally have had much more money put into their super, so it is expected that by the time they reach retirement age, the pension:super balance will have shifted more in the super direction.

> Moreover, the proportion of those relying on the pension has increased between 2020 and 2022 by 3 pts.

That period saw significant economic and social disruption due to COVID-19, so I doubt that change is representative of long-term trends. If an economic shock causes a rise in unemployment, that can push people near retirement age into unplanned early retirement-and the people most likely to be impacted by that are likely to be the least well-off, who inevitably are more likely to rely on the government pension than their own retirement funds

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are living longer. Demographically there are fewer younger people to support them. Something has to give.

On the other hand, productivity has improved tremendously. It's not clear that we actually need everyone working.

Sure, if you want to freeze your quality of life at 1980 standards.

I, on the other hand, prefer 2020 standard of life so I’m going to keep working.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#618

Do people save their own money in Europe for retirement or do most people expect to rely entirely on pension? I honestly don't know, just curious.

Also curious… in the US I don’t know any working professionals in my generation (millennial) that are counting on social security as part of their retirement planning. If it’s there, great - but if it’s not, not going to let it keep me from clocking out at 65.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#619
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you have enough money to do all that then you probably have enough to retire a little early. Why not stop working at 60 and fund the first few years of your retirement out of your savings?

From what I understand if you retire early you must fund your retirement until the end. So you either work until the requested age and get something, or you don't and don't get anything. You can't just stop at 60, fund your retirement from 60 to 70, and then expect the gov to pay for your retirement from 70 to the end. Maybe I'm wrong tho.

Not sure how it works in Denmark but in Poland you have to work certain amount of years (20-25) to qualify for retirement even though the retirement age is 60-65. The amount you get depends on how much you paid into the system, so you will get less for not working, but it'll not prevent you from receiving the pension. And in the US, you become eligible for pension after just 10 years of paying into the system.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USSR and Yugoslavia and Albania and Cuba and North Korea and Vietnam and China pre-2000s have all had far higher tax rates than Denmark during their worst times, so probably not a great correlation. Denmark is like all the other Nordic countries culturally, except they have much easier direct geographic lines to Central Europe. So it’s basically what you get when you combine the Nordic model (tiny homogenous Luth…

Cuba, Vietnam and Albania have way lower tax-to-GDP than Denmark. They are way below OECD average. Care to share your tax statistics on USSR, Yugoslavia, North Korea and pre-2000s China? The Nordic model was created by socialist and labor movements in the 20th century. Finland, a tiny homogeneous Lutheran population, even had a brutal civil war over this. Nothing to do with religion or ethnicity.

The heydays of communism in those countries are long gone. Current tax-to-GDP stats are simply correctly reflecting those countries being poor and heavily black market driven.

And it’s everything to do with religion and history, why do you think all the Nordic countries had these same 20th century movements and all have extremely similar governance approaches.

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