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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

bbc.com

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#611

Post by kebman »

karparov wrote: post #476
hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

It's also restricting the freedom of communities if you ban them from adding fluoride to their water if they like to. This ban is anti-freedom. (Just like forcing them could be argued to be, even though that's what you argued against.) So, this ban is arguably reducing freedoms on multiple levels.

Personal freedom ≠ "freedom of communities"—there is no such thing. Freedom applies to individuals, not collectives. When a community makes a decision that affects all its members, that’s democracy, but democracy is not unlimited authority. A majority vote does not grant the right to infringe on individual autonomy, which is why safeguards exist against the tyranny of the majority.

Banning fluoride does not restrict freedom—it prevents government overreach. In contrast, forcing fluoride on everyone would violate personal autonomy. Protecting individual choice is a fundamental principle, backed by real-world safeguards like constitutional rights, judicial review, and bodily autonomy laws. The burden of proof is always on those seeking to impose a policy, not on those defending individual freedom.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#612

Post by hilbert42 »

hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

So then, you'd also be against adding folate/folic acid to bread for the same reason?

For those who don't know many countries including the US mandate the inclusion of folic acid in bread and certain other foods to ensure pregnant women get enough. A deficiency of folic acid during pregnancy causes birth defects in infants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folate

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#613

Post by giantg2 »

j_maffe wrote: post #515
Perenti wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. Every time I see a dentist here in Queensland (non-fluoridated water) he asks me where else I lived as my teeth are so much better than what he usually sees, and if drilling my teeth are much harder than most Queenslanders. My early years were spent in Melbourne, where fluoridation was introduced around 1970. That's the only time I lived with fluoridated water, for about 3 years. yet dentists can see the ef…

You're refuting a statment based on studies and statistics by anecdotal evedince. Also, GP never denied that flouridation is still helpful for non-brushing residents.

The real question is, fluoridated water in the past or not, how is any non-brushing patient being told they're teeth are top tier?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#614

Post by amazingamazing »

nemo44x wrote: post #606
amazingamazing wrote: post #598

Preventing cavities is far more effective with topical application of fluoride on the teeth, rather than ingestion. I personally don’t buy the passive health benefit. Even if it’s true, there’s no proof that fluoridated water is superior to topical application. Not to mention that if we’re going to just roll over and accept stuff in the water for public health reasons, what really should be added are more vitamins, n…

For children developing their “adult teeth” fluoride ingestion strengthens those teeth before they pop out. Topical has no effect obviously since they haven’t surfaced yet.

And for that there is fluoride mouthwash, which again isn’t ingested and would be more effective.

> Regular use of fluoride mouthrinse under supervision results in a large reduction in tooth decay in children's permanent teeth.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6457869/#:~:text=Be...

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#615

Post by abrookewood »

zouhair wrote: post #577
impossiblefork wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you will brush your teeth anyway, and then you apply fluoride topically. It works. Here in Sweden we decided against fluoride for this reason and the fact that it is in fact toxic. It isn't sensible to use systemic exposure when we can use topical exposure and can improve mouth health by education, so that people do what they're supposed to. The fluoride approach achieves a basic level of health, but you can do s…

Just an FYI, water is also toxic.

Yes, I was going to mention this. Had a friend who went down the coast for a day trip with a bunch of mates. On the way back on the train (1.5 hour ride) they had a competition to see who could drink the most water and most of them had several litres, a few of them managed a bit more. My mate also had a bunch of chips/snacks, but not everyone did.

Later that night, he got a desperate phone from his friends mum, screaming at him "What did you take! What drugs did you take!!!", he replied that they hadn't taken anything, but wasn't really believed. His friend was rushed to hospital with severe seizures and convulsions. The doctors eventually put him on a saline drip and he recovered.

Basically his friend lowered the salt content in his body so much that his body could not pass electrical signals. My friend was fine because he had consumed a bit of salt in his snacks. Kinda crazy.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#616

Post by zenolijo »

stavros wrote: post #561
impossiblefork wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your GDP per capita is 50% higher than ours. You have money for this. If there's no will to raise up the poor, you it should be straightforward to use the state directly to ensure that everyone is taught how to brush their teeth and ensured to have access to brushes and toothpaste.

I agree with you, but GDP per capita isn't the correct measure here when the bottom 8% in the US has no health insurance compared to Sweden's 0%, which I have to assume because I didn't even find this measured anywhere due to universal healthcare.

While Sweden has free health care, it does not completely include dental care. It's free until you turn 20, after that you pay out of your own pocket. This is to incentivize people to take care of their teeth, instead of not caring and then expecting free replacement of your teeth. One you're 20, you only get a very tiny deductible on your dental care which equates to almost the exactly the cost of a single basic check-up once a year.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#617

Post by abrookewood »

belter wrote: post #583
zouhair wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an FYI, water is also toxic.

Indeed: "Water Intoxication" - https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/water-intoxic...

There was an infamous death in Australia when a young girl drank too much water after taking MDMA. It's blamed on the drug, but the thing that actually killed her was water intoxication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Wood_(born_1980)

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#618

Post by jjice »

theGnuMe wrote: post #593
roywashere wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat related, as a teen in the 90s I worked at McDonald’s in The Netherlands. Because of the diet in the US, the bread used for hamburgers contained extra calcium to be more ‘healthy’, because many people did not get enough calcium intake. In The Netherlands, where people drink much more dairy products, especially back in the 90s, people would get plenty of calcium so there was no need to put extra in the bread.…

You have to drink 32 ounces of milk per day to get enough daily calcium.

I was surprised when I realized that milk didn’t have that much calcium by volume, relative to how it was promoted to me as a kid.

I found that almond milk had a good bit more by volume and the US dairy industry probably just had some good marketing in the 2000s with the Got Milk campaign.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#619

Post by kebman »

theGnuMe wrote: post #593
roywashere wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat related, as a teen in the 90s I worked at McDonald’s in The Netherlands. Because of the diet in the US, the bread used for hamburgers contained extra calcium to be more ‘healthy’, because many people did not get enough calcium intake. In The Netherlands, where people drink much more dairy products, especially back in the 90s, people would get plenty of calcium so there was no need to put extra in the bread.…

You have to drink 32 ounces of milk per day to get enough daily calcium.

For the rest of the world: 32 ounces is almost one litre of milk.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#620

Post by graemep »

impossiblefork wrote: post #529
hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

But you will brush your teeth anyway, and then you apply fluoride topically. It works. Here in Sweden we decided against fluoride for this reason and the fact that it is in fact toxic. It isn't sensible to use systemic exposure when we can use topical exposure and can improve mouth health by education, so that people do what they're supposed to. The fluoride approach achieves a basic level of health, but you can do s…

In the UK at least some areas have fluoridated water, despite almost all toothpaste being fluoridated. I suppose it most benefits the minority of people who do not brush their teeth. That benefit has to be balanced[1] against some evidence of risk.

IMO the right fix is better dental hygiene, and a better (less sugary) diet. These are in turn are in part symptomatic of other problems (poverty, long working hours with regards to lack of supervision of children).

[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/water-fluoridatio...

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