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The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#611

Post by namaria »

Mo3 wrote: post #560
nekochanwork wrote: post #530

I am an engineering manager for a large team of developers. Part of my job is to estimate the cost and potential revenue of big projects. I have a spreadsheet of everyone's salaries (including bonus compensation, other perks). I've done the math at my own company: average developer salary is approximately $100k. Our largest teams have 10 developers, so about $1M in labor costs. These teams work on projects that bring…

I'm sure many of us have figured this out, it's just that there's no alternative for most. I live in Europe and we are all unionized and I hate to break it to you but we're still creating much more value than we earn for someone else. Our work conditions may be significantly better - I work 40h/week with unlimited vacation (within reason ofc) and sick days - yet still burnout happens frequently and necessitates costl…

Turns out when your work is thinking, you end up thinking a lot about the alienation of your labor's fruits.

Burnout isn't about pace of work or ability to take vacations. Burnout is about a disconnect between effort, meaning, and rewards.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#612

Post by hiatus »

rockemsockem wrote: post #554
hiatus wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you perform interviews on potential doctors or lawyers you may choose to use? If you trust credentialing bodies for such important services why the distrust for something non-lifethreatening like an employee?

Yes? Of course I do? Do you seriously think that doctors are a commodity with no difference in skills between them? The phrase "get a second opinion" is so intrinsically tied to medicine that it's a little weird that you'd imply that any doctor will do.

A second opinion comes after services are rendered. I don't think you put your doctor through a ringer like an employment candidate, was the point I was making.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#613

Post by bluefirebrand »

SR2Z wrote: post #585
bluefirebrand wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not because they're evil, it's just good business Almost everything I have ever heard described as "good business" is pretty evil You never hear "Oh we should give everyone a raise, that's just good business" It's always stuff like "we put 10000 orphans through a meat grinder to make 10 cents, it wasn't personal it was just good business" Edit: of course that is an exaggeration But more realistic examples incl…

> You never hear "Oh we should give everyone a raise, that's just good business" Lots of big tech companies give people raises automatically when they think they're too underpaid. > Frankly, maybe if companies need to make such "good business" tradeoffs frequently, it shows that the people running them aren't actually good at business in the first place I really, really don't get this. Sometimes companies overhire. S…

> most of the time it's a reflection of interest rates and nothing more

Yeah that's basically what I'm saying

Unsustainably over-hiring to take advantage of low interest rates is viewed as a smart business decision. It may actually be a smart business decision, but it is still evil

Re: The Burnout Machine

#614

Post by pcthrowaway »

sophacles wrote: post #181
Terr_ wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> something that I suspect is the real reason unions don't catch on more in tech. I think a bigger issue is the difficulty of measuring correctness and quantity of individual output. For a classic-style of union in manufacturing, the standardized widgets coming off an assembly line mean it's easier to determine which workers are being fired for actual-cause, versus the ones who need to be protected by the union becau…

An awful lot of unions exist in spaces where "compare the widget to the template" is an impossibility. Some examples: SAE standardizes the labor cost for a given task, although an individual mechanic may go faster and slower than the proscribed hours. The same mechanaic will have different times for multiple instances of the same task based on details of the job. Police unions effectively require arbitration on an em…

> Police unions effectively require arbitration on an employee by employee basis, since police work is so highly situationally dependent.

Are police unions real unions? Or just a vehicle for them to further avoid accountability for their wrongdoings?

Re: The Burnout Machine

#615

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 »

m463 wrote: post #603
nekochanwork wrote: post #530

I am an engineering manager for a large team of developers. Part of my job is to estimate the cost and potential revenue of big projects. I have a spreadsheet of everyone's salaries (including bonus compensation, other perks). I've done the math at my own company: average developer salary is approximately $100k. Our largest teams have 10 developers, so about $1M in labor costs. These teams work on projects that bring…

Isn't this how business works? For example, walmart revenue per employee is $300k but they mostly make minimum wage. starbucks is $94k/employee

It is funny when middle class salaried employees notice the same thing that every minimum wage worker knows intuitively, but that’s part of how this system remains stable is a lack of awareness.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#616

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #527
thom__ wrote: post #28

Awesome to see something like this on HN. As we keep working for less pay, more hours, the constant threat of layoffs, and business leaders frothing at the mouth to replace us all with AI, it's important to remember that we aren't powerless as workers. It's also important to remember that your relationship to the higher-ups is adversarial. They want to get as much productivity out of you for as little pay as possible…

> It's not because they're evil, it's just good business Almost everything I have ever heard described as "good business" is pretty evil You never hear "Oh we should give everyone a raise, that's just good business" It's always stuff like "we put 10000 orphans through a meat grinder to make 10 cents, it wasn't personal it was just good business" Edit: of course that is an exaggeration But more realistic examples incl…

>good business is evil

Yes (often)

Re: The Burnout Machine

#617

Post by rangestransform »

skywalqer wrote: post #137
FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #51

I don't want a union... I want state licenses like doctors, nurse, lawyers, engineers, etc.

Yeah, great, give programming a high entry barrier for new people. One of the worst ideas I've heard today.

Why should I as an individual software engineer not support this? We’re already in this profession and pulling the ladder up could help us maintain our salaries and working conditions

Re: The Burnout Machine

#618

Post by mrangle »

ever1337 wrote: post #550
Nemi wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is overly simplistic. I don’t fault you for it, but it shows a lack of understanding how a business functions. There is a lot of overhead that goes into running a business, as others have mentioned. Taxes. Rent. Utilities. Licenses. Certifications. HR, testers, project managers, product managers, people managers, directors, marketing, customer service, sales, C suite, and on and on. I know right now you might be…

And yet you still turn a profit at the end of the day, i.e., money that's not going to 'overhead'. Let's not kid ourselves. Your interest as the owner is to maximize that profit and minimize expenses, and our interest as workers is to maximize our wage and minimize your profit.

Before maximizing wages and minimizing profit, your interest as workers is to assure that the owner is provided with enough financial motivation to both stay in business and not find substitute employees or solutions for the work that you do.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#619

Post by mrangle »

h2zizzle wrote: post #570
Nemi wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it should be. I am not begrudging anyone of that. As a matter of fact, I often mentor employees on treating their career as a business, and build it accordingly. Just like a strong business, you should be selling your services for as much as reasonable, and if your employer is not paying the appropriate price then find another “buyer”. To maximize the price you can sell your ‘product’ (you), you should be making c…

>As it should be. No, this is just the (insane) status quo. Ideally, however, businesses exist to carry out a mission (beyond making money). Part of this mission is supporting the livelihoods of employees; part of it is giving a return to investors; part of should be some social net good (maybe within a larger societal context, if not unilaterally). Much as "maximizing" the price at which you sell yourself (ick) ofte…

This is cringe idealism. It bears no resemblance to the way things work.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#620

Post by mrangle »

m463 wrote: post #603
nekochanwork wrote: post #530

I am an engineering manager for a large team of developers. Part of my job is to estimate the cost and potential revenue of big projects. I have a spreadsheet of everyone's salaries (including bonus compensation, other perks). I've done the math at my own company: average developer salary is approximately $100k. Our largest teams have 10 developers, so about $1M in labor costs. These teams work on projects that bring…

Isn't this how business works? For example, walmart revenue per employee is $300k but they mostly make minimum wage. starbucks is $94k/employee

This is how the monetary system works. While your math is inaccurate in terms of the spirit of what it is attempting to show, correcting for that, its still the way of the world until money is no longer a thing.
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