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Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

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Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#611

Post by recursive »

gumball-amp wrote: post #518
recursive wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did that come from? There are some things in life that don't revolve around identity politics, and I'd venture to say, ATC is one of them.

Unfortunately, there's a long-standing scandal and lawsuit around the ATC and its hiring practices that will inevitably play into the analysis of this tragedy -- details here: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-... I can well believe it has absolutely nothing to do with this disaster, but I don't think either political side has any interest in arguing over the fine points of that distinction.

Wow, I hadn't heard about that. It seems the FAA inserted themselves into the culture wars. I take it all back. Every single thing is now based on identity politics.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#612

Post by gosub100 »

rob74 wrote: post #256
jonstewart wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DCA is great to fly in and out of (I live in DC proper), as it's close, isn't hard to get to, and has a Metro (our subway) station right in front of the terminal, and the airport is fairly easy to navigate once you're in. Dulles now has a Metro station, but it's still far away from the terminal and it's hard to navigate, with gates very far away from the terminal; other than the Saarinen architecture, everything else…

> more funding/staffing for ATC More funding? From an administration that is currently doing its best to get rid of as many federal employees as possible and has an extra "department" (led by you-know-who) dedicated to that? What they will probably do with ATC is privatize it (which is actually a reasonable thing to do - it's private in most of Europe, but if the intention behind it is to save money, it will probably…

There's a privately controlled tower at KSQL (San Carlos) and there have been numerous incidents of ATC losing their cool on pilots, sometimes brand new students. All the YT comments say it's because it's privately controlled and understaffed and many pilots vouch for similar drama happening to them. I can't prove it, just passing along a data point. Obviously this problem could be solved by paying better and having enough staff. But how likely is that?

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#613

Post by tristor »

gamblor956 wrote: post #609
tristor wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the link that I replied to? Because in that link, what I am responding to, it EXPLICITLY says that the FAA changed the ATC selection process to exclude candidates based on demographics (being not diverse) regardless of their aptitude as tested using a standardized and validated cognitive assessment. These were candidates who had already completed multiple years of schooling and explicitly wanted to be AT…

No, you read a link that says people suing the FAA claim the FAA didn't hire qualified candidates on diversity. Except that none of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit actually bothered to apply for jobs with the FAA (see this blog post from their own legal team crowing about winning a procedural matter over whether they had standing to sue given that they never applied for a job and thus were never actually rejected by th…

Perhaps I misunderstood something, but it seems those claims were supported by the evidence of multiple internal memos retrieved via discovery. Another commenter points out that this practice ended in 2018 due to Congress making it illegal, but prior that the FAA had been issuing a biographical assessment as a basis for hiring decisions, exactly as stated in the article.

Your own link has the court opinion confirming my understanding of the article. The fact they won the case on procedural grounds is not relevant to the fact the court is opining in the case that the evidence supports a conclusion that the FAA discriminated against "non-diverse" candidates who were otherwise qualified.

I think we can all agree that for a role like ATC, the most important thing is that candidates are competent and capable, because it is literally life or death. I have the strong belief that minority candidates are also competent and capable, so discriminatory against "non-diverse" candidates is reprehensible in the strongest terms. I don't think my position here is unusual, unreasonable, or in any way objectionable, and it turns out Congress agreed and made this practice explicitly illegal.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#614

Post by chinathrow »

chinathrow wrote: post #311
dboreham wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helicopter flies at 200ft. Planes landing have to traverse through 200ft. Therefore vertical separation impossible.

This heli route is just crazy.

Update: Found the routes in the FAA HELDC PDF

https://aeronav.faa.gov/visual/12-26-2024/PDFs/Balt-Wash_Hel...

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#615

Post by trhway »

jahewson wrote: post #605
trhway wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> easier to see. One has radars even on recreational boats. That was a military helicopter. At night. It would be hard to believe that it doesn't have nor radar nor IR cameras, and the plane would be lightened up like X-mas tree in both.

Marine radar is trivial compared to air-to-air radar. The Black Hawk, like most aircraft, does not have an air-to-air radar. IR cameras would be completely inappropriate for the situation but night vision goggles are a possibility I guess - though still have all the same drawbacks as using your eyes - you have to look in the right direction and recognise what that small dot is that you’re seeing.

>Marine radar is trivial compared to air-to-air radar.

like in the case of a boat, the air-to-air radar is still peanuts compare to the cost of the plane/helicopter

>The Black Hawk, like most aircraft, does not have an air-to-air radar.

Pretty surprising for the military. You'd like to know when an enemy fighter or a missile coming for you. And military frequently operates in the territories without any ATC, so you'd like to see even the friendly planes and helicopters too. Say at night over Iraq.

And even without radar - simple ADS-B receiver attached to notebook plotting onto the screen of the notebook would be a great improvement in that situation over DC or anywhere over US.

> IR cameras would be completely inappropriate for the situation ...recognise what that small dot is that you’re seeing.

in visual at night you have a sea of city lights with some low flying lights you can easily mistake for ground lights. In IR all those city lights would pretty much disappear, while the plane's engines and exhaust would be a very bright light against very dark background of the sky.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#616

Post by alistairSH »

seattle_spring wrote: post #549
jumpman_miya wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"People are saying" What reports, specifically?

The same ones Trump hears, probably.

FAA ATC has been underfunded and understaffed for years. That has nothing to do with DEI.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#617

Post by alistairSH »

coryfklein wrote: post #526
teractiveodular wrote: post #240

To put this in perspective, this is the first fatal crash of a US commercial airliner in 16 years (Colgan Air Flight 3407 on February 12, 2009) and the first fatal commercial airliner crash in the United States in 12 years (since Asiana Airlines Flight 214 on July 6, 2013). We like to throw shade at Boeing, the FAA etc, but this is still an incredible accomplishment, especially given the explosive growth of traffic o…

Can you clarify the difference between these? > first fatal crash of a US commercial airliner > first fatal commercial airliner crash in the United States Is it that the 2009 crash was a US-manufactured plane while the 2013 crash was not manufactured in the US but happened in the US?

I believe the distinction the OP was making was foreign-owned/operated airline vs domestic. Makes a small difference, but not hufe, as all commericial pilots landing in the US must have an FAA ATP, and the same minimum flight hours as American pilots (though the quality of those hours and other training may vary).

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#618

Post by cutemonster »

gumball-amp wrote: post #518
recursive wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did that come from? There are some things in life that don't revolve around identity politics, and I'd venture to say, ATC is one of them.

Unfortunately, there's a long-standing scandal and lawsuit around the ATC and its hiring practices that will inevitably play into the analysis of this tragedy -- details here: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-... I can well believe it has absolutely nothing to do with this disaster, but I don't think either political side has any interest in arguing over the fine points of that distinction.

Is this for real: (questions for becoming an ATC, linked from the article you liked. It's so weird so I'm not sure)

https://kaisoapbox.com/projects/faa_biographical_assessment/

The questions are mind-blowing. And:

> In the present day, there is a critical shortage of ATCs, with the FAA having 1,000 fewer ATCs in 2023 than it did in 2012.

If that's how they were hiring (although they don't do today), I could understand if that has a bit contributed to fewer ATCs today.

Seems it is for real: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2025/jan/30/faa-diversi...

"... In 2013, the FAA started using a “biographical assessment” to increase the hiring of preferred minority racial groups at air traffic control centers. The assessment asked applicants about their participation in school sports and the age at which they started earning money."

"The assessment disqualified more experienced, qualified applicants ..."

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#619

Post by huijzer »

bryant wrote: post #27

Not that being near DC affords me any kind of right to an opinion, but: Given the uptick in near miss incidents across the US the last few years, this is the kind of incident that should've been entirely avoidable through changes in policy from these past events but is also apparently the only kind that can spur along policy changes. I can see a world where the fault is on the VH-60, but absent more information, it w…

blancolirio (active pilot who regularly makes videos about crahses with the aim of improving safety) just released a new video on this accident: https://youtu.be/_3gD_lnBNu0

Summary: The helicopter might have been a little bit too high. The night vision goggles might have negatively affected the vision. The two aircraft were probably on different frequencies so didn’t hear each other. And the helicopter might have focused on the wrong plane to avoid because they didn’t see the right one thanks to the city skyline. It looks like the classic swiss cheese where multiple problems stacked up to cause the collision. See the video for details.

Re: Commercial jet collides with Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan airport

#620

Post by gosub100 »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #604
gosub100 wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been culminating for years. they don't fire incompetent people and they use skin color and gender as a factor in deciding who to hire. It's federal employment and is linked greatly to politics.

If it's been "culminating for years" why is this the first time this has happened in 16 years? Or are all the white men just doing that great of a job compensating for their dumbass POC/non-male colleagues? It's not like this is a team effort where one competent employee can cover for others; if an ATC is genuinely unqualified, shit is going to go wrong immediately. Your grievance politics are nonsensical on their fa…

If you didn't deliberately misinterpret the word "it" you would have nothing to dispute.
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