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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#611

Post by JohnMakin »

pphysch wrote: post #610
JohnMakin wrote: post #592

I'm absolutely not a fan of giving a game the level of kernel access these games take without my permission. That said, cheating is an existential threat to a good game experience online, and I really don't know of any other solution. What's been frustrating over the years is when kernel anti-cheats, unbeknownst to you, are causing issues with other games entirely unrelated to what you are playing - because some game…

> cheating is an existential threat to a good game experience online, and I really don't know of any other solution. Cheating is downstream of the trust problem with an anonymous global "community". Anti-cheat is just an arms race, but there are other avenues to addressing it (weak "KYC", like requiring a phone number to play ranked modes). Deadlock is potentially doing something interesting with its invite-only EA s…

This is a really interesting and potentially great idea, but I am fundamentally against the KYC thing because it puts me in a position where I'm at the whims of whatever BS automated moderation systems they put in place these days, which is usually quite terrible.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#612

Post by valval »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #580
valval wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a system in place for when my identical brother who is leagues better at your game than me hops on my account and proceeds to mop the floor with the competition?

For most games these days there is thanks to skill based matchmaking. Your brother will be matched up with people in your skill bracket and will absolutely wreck them. Then whenever you get back on you will have moved up in skill thanks to big bro and will now get wrecked until you get tossed back into the lobbies you belong. People generally hate this though because for one it makes most games into way too serious s…

Thanks, although I was joking since I thought I was responding to a satirical post. Turns out OP is developing such game for real.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#613

Post by 6SixTy »

donatj wrote: post #546

Has anyone made a game where cheating is not just explicitly allowed but is in fact the game ? It really seems like there could be something there.

Whenever there's community servers, hack v. hack servers are bound to follow. For integral game mechanics? There's almost always a mechanic balancing anything hack adjacent.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#614

Post by nathants »

valval wrote: post #512
nathants wrote: post #236

kernel level anticheat is not enough. client inputs have to be trusted, and there is no provenance. the kernel has no visibility of inputs. i’m shipping a 100 player matchmaking game now. clients tick at 360hz, server ticks at 120hz. fair up to 60 ping, which covers entire continents. servers are metal, not vms. epyc 4244p with 2Gbps egress, 1 server per 15 minute game. mitigations=off and nosmt on all clients and th…

Is there a system in place for when my identical brother who is leagues better at your game than me hops on my account and proceeds to mop the floor with the competition?

sbmm wouldn’t fix this, as skill is at the account level and changes slowly.

what does fix this is handcam anti-cheat, which makes it trivial to identify the operator by their hand movement patterns, arm size, etc.

you can review not only the match you are in, but all previous matches. full fidelity replays + handcam = a brave new world.

account sharing is not allowed in ranked. in pubs, go crazy.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#615

Post by nathants »

shkkmo wrote: post #522
nathants wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

possibly, depending on the gpu. wickedengine requires modernish gpu. spite was definitely a part of it. at a certain point while playing and watching fortnite solo build, i wondered why there are so many bugs and if i could fix them. i wanted to understand why ping advantage and storm surge have to exist. this game was my journey to find out. it has been a privilege and a joy every single day. as far as security, you…

While I appreciate the lack of self promotion, I don't see any name or link for your project in either comment. Can you share one? I'm sure I'm not the only curious person.

link in bio.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#616

Post by ethbr1 »

sunshowers wrote: post #598
consteval wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solution: submit them for an account ban. The games that have the most cheating either: 1. don't do account bans 2. don't limit account creation You can trivially limit account creation by just charging money for the games.

I think free to play is where the market has ended up. I get it, though, I kind of stopped playing competitive games after it became all about the F2P grind. Even cosmetics-only F2P hits a part of my brain that I try keeping in check. I just play single-player and cooperative games now.

When one enters the career and/or family stage of life, it doesn't make sense to compete against people who have the time commitments of neither. ;)

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#617

Post by nathants »

shkkmo wrote: post #526
nathants wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not possible to stop modification, but i will be heavily surveilling the system, and i know exactly what it should look like. the process tree is known in advance. handcam anti-cheat and replays will handle provenance of inputs. non-human inputs are cheating. you could try to boot in vm, but performance will suffer. the server moved off vms for the same reason. the only thing i really care about is non-human inputs.…

Anti-cheat is always an arms race. A modified image can report anything it wants to your surveillance. That said, you can win that arms race for a while by doing something sufficiently innovative, different and specialized and you may have that here. I doubt this approach offers a permanent solution though. Edit: I do think there is a lot to the idea of not trying to put all players through the same level of anti-che…

eventually gen-ai may be an issue, but we’ll have to see. likely it will always be asymmetric, easier to detect than create. it will make cheating more expensive at a minimum, flawless live video at 1080p60 matched to game inputs will cost gpu time. then we turn up handcam fidelity. 120fps. 1440p. the sky is the limit.

handcam-anticheat is ranked only. pubs has good old fashioned try-our-best anti-cheat. aka thoughts-and-prayers anti-cheat.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#618

Post by ethbr1 »

consteval wrote: post #589
ethbr1 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> historically a large chunk of this problem was solved by communities hosting servers Yes and no. I lived through that era too, and there are serious scaling problems: at some point, trying to banhammer griefers with rotating IPs becomes a full time job, and then the public servers turn into a dumpster fire.

Solution: submit them for an account ban. The games that have the most cheating either: 1. don't do account bans 2. don't limit account creation You can trivially limit account creation by just charging money for the games.

Account bans + community servers don't work either, as the chain of custody for evidence is tainted.

I say consteval was caught cheating on the server I run, and that account should be banned.

Am I, my server's admin, lying?

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#619

Post by nathants »

digging wrote: post #541
nathants wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

exactly! what we need is more power, and more mouse room. anyone playing fortnite ranked already has the needed hardware, and the motivation. if you haven’t won a solo build game on 1440p 360hz, you haven’t ever actually played a video game.

> if you haven’t won a solo build game on 1440p 360hz, you haven’t ever actually played a video game. I think this is the most insane thing you've written here today, the one thing I truly disagree with. I'm not sure you even agree with it, given you seem to already understand well the difference between casual, competitive, and hardcore competitive play. But are you aware of solo play?

the distinction i’m trying to draw, is that while the term gaming is beloved, it is a very large umbrella. i don’t have a new term to offer, but i stand by what i said. 1440p360 solo build win IS a different type of thing than launching a rocket in factorio. we are going to need new terms.

it’s not about casual vs competitive. it’s about how the game feels to play, and how the adrenaline hits your blood stream.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#620

Post by nathants »

tightbookkeeper wrote: post #551
nathants wrote: post #236

kernel level anticheat is not enough. client inputs have to be trusted, and there is no provenance. the kernel has no visibility of inputs. i’m shipping a 100 player matchmaking game now. clients tick at 360hz, server ticks at 120hz. fair up to 60 ping, which covers entire continents. servers are metal, not vms. epyc 4244p with 2Gbps egress, 1 server per 15 minute game. mitigations=off and nosmt on all clients and th…

Cheating is a human problem. The technology just makes us feel in control. I will not be playing games that make me feel like a prisoner. The experience taking standardized tests is enough for one life.

i respect your feelings and your choice. happiness, privacy and security are important.

there are however legions of fortnite players who would mortgage their lives for a better game. a handcam without audio during gameplay seems a more reasonable and low price to pay. time will tell what gamers think! very exciting.

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