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DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

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Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#611

Post by gen220 »

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #467
gen220 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, I know many people in NYC who spend ~60% of their post-tax income on rented housing. Nobody is happy about it or thinks it's a good idea, but living further out is not perceived as a legitimate option because of the fear of being severed either socially or career-wise. Whether that's a rational fear or not, it's a reality that allows housing prices to outpace wage gains every year. As somebody who used to…

Yes, living in one of the, if not the, most desirable cities on the planet comes with additional costs.

NYC has been in that category for a long time.

The 60% of income on rented housing for people whose income would make them otherwise solidly middle class (to me, this definition includes ownership of real estate) is new.

Something else that's new: the prevalence of managing NYC properties through family trusts from a great distance while its members are domiciled and functionally unemployed in tax-shelter states. Hmm, I wonder if there's any explanatory power to that correlation?

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#612

Post by gen220 »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #133
RhodesianHunter wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing supply is inelastic due to the time it takes to permit and built. Housing demand is more elastic than you suspect. People have income on a curve, and at a certain point of price/quality will move further out and commute or move to a lower cost of living city entirely.

> People have income on a curve, and at a certain point of price/quality will move further out and commute or move to a lower cost of living city entirely. This doesn't describe the major renter class who has few workable options to choose from. They take whatever they can get. Once they manage a place to live, they're likely trapped there because they don't have a wad of cash on hand (required to move). That's avera…

In NYC, the typical non-negotiable broker's fee for a not-disintegrating apartment ranges from 10-15%. That's on top of a security deposit and all the other costs associated with moving. It's a cartel that can only be broken by collective political action.

Things are slowly moving in that direction, only because the pressure has been so high for so long. It almost boiled over during COVID in some neighborhoods. There are still works of "Abolish Rent" graffiti left over from that time.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#613

Post by HDThoreaun »

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #468
HDThoreaun wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all units are being rented there is no collusion as the market clearing price is being charged. Collusion requires taking supply off the market in order to raise prices.

> Collusion requires taking supply off the market in order to raise prices. This is factually incorrect.

It is not possible to raise prices without lowering supply if the seller is already trying to maximize profit. Sure the seller could be undercutting the market but that has nothing to do with collusion. Apartments rent in an auction, each fills for the most anyone will rent it for. In order to raise prices landlords need to increase the competition for each unit.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#614

Post by SideQuark »

vineyardmike wrote: post #608
SideQuark wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> signed a contract Contracts aren't infinite. And contracts have to follow the law. > so you'll need their pricing in the future (so you can't break your contracts), or you'll need to do your own independent market research without access to their data >The entire US is not one market. Are you trying to claim that of the millions of landlords, somehow they are clustered away from bigger markets and that RealPage con…

> Contracts aren't infinite. And contracts have to follow the law. Yes! And the RealPage contract broke the law. It prevented landlords from competing as you suggest they compete , breaking the law. It enabled landlords to collude and prevent prices from dropping. Landlords are part of larger markets, but it’s ridiculous to think the market is “all of America”. It’s very regionalized and segmented. > Here's an idea:…

> ts monopoly over commercial revenue management software for multi-family dwellings in the United States

Yes, if define a market small enough, then you can try to claim monopoly (which, of course, is not illegal). Apple fixes prices of it's goods across all retailers, as do many manufacturers. Is this illegal? They control the market for apple good, so why don't the retailers compete on price?

Because it is legal for somone to set prices across retailers. It always has been. And in the case of landlords, the sheer number of options for consumers most likely means this DOJ action, like many, will fail.

You forgot to reply to:

> demonstrate that in some big market that RealPage controls the majority of the rental units,

I'll wait. Unless you care to answer this basic question there's no reason to continue.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#615

Post by duped »

rangestransform wrote: post #605
duped wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the income isn't "free" and the margins are basically zero for small-time property owners on the rent itself. The bulk of the income comes from appreciation in value of the real estate, and when you sell you owe capital gains taxes (which are exempt on sales of a primary residence). And in most places the property taxes are higher, for my home it's about 15% higher. I only know this because I have been pr…

> All told it's a slightly better investment than S&P 500 index funds, but resistant to downturns This is incredibly bad for society. Investing in businesses that hire people and make goods and services should never be disadvantaged relative to hoarding a plot of land, and it is the folly of the anglosphere that we've allowed land hoarders to siphon so much money from people doing actually productive things.

I think you're making broad statements about macroeconomics without thinking too hard about it.

If you're spending $X in rent and have $Y in cash, whether or not it's better for you personally to put that money into equities, treasuries, or real estate depends almost entirely on the current interest rate.

So while to me personally, it makes more financial sense to rent the property, the same could not be said of anyone that would purchase or rent the property today.

The market rates for housing, either for sales or rent, is pretty much the same when looked at as a monthly payment. The only question is whether or not one has $Y in cash for a downpayment and if they will come out on top if they use that money for a mortgage instead of putting it into the stock market. Owning your home is not always better than renting, it depends entirely on your situation and the current market.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#616

Post by BizarroLand »

ndesaulniers wrote: post #447
HelloMcFly wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone else runs into this issue, typically the direct route for things like this is to get involved a discussion with someone in your Total Rewards / Global Compensation team. These are usually the people that confirm the mapping of internal positions to benchmarks, and there is huge between-organizations variability in the quality behind that process. Many times normal managers or more generalist HR Partners (es…

HR is not your friend. Corporate Confidential by Cynthia Shapiro is a recommended read. My advice; get a better offer elsewhere, then see if HR wants to pay you your worth.

"HR" stands for "Human Resources".

Resources are exploited by companies.

QED.

The most profitable thing in all of human history has always been and will always be information disparity. Create systems to share information on your salary with other people in your field.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#617

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

bick_nyers wrote: post #599
bobthepanda wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NYT recently did a piece on how the tendrils of the housing crisis have made it out to places like Kalamazoo, MI that are not really traditionally high COL cities with booming economies. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/22/business/economy/housing-... We are running out of cheap places to live in. Remote work has mostly pushed the crisis to other places without a corresponding pressure release in the high COL area…

I can't read the article because of the paywall, but Kalamazoo is unique due to the Kalamazoo Promise, where college tuition (in the state of MI) is paid for if you attend Kalamazoo Public Schools. For me that was $60k of tuition I didn't have to take out loans for. Housing/grocery prices have gone up there but not nearly as dramatically as other places.

> Kalamazoo is unique

Our rents in Florida have doubled for unique reasons. My loved ones in VA, DE, MD, KY, NC and MI are seeing rents over 50% higher for reasons unique to each area.

It kind of feels like a pattern.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#618

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #467
gen220 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, I know many people in NYC who spend ~60% of their post-tax income on rented housing. Nobody is happy about it or thinks it's a good idea, but living further out is not perceived as a legitimate option because of the fear of being severed either socially or career-wise. Whether that's a rational fear or not, it's a reality that allows housing prices to outpace wage gains every year. As somebody who used to…

Yes, living in one of the, if not the, most desirable cities on the planet comes with additional costs.

> Yes, living in one of the, if not the, most desirable cities on the planet comes with additional costs.

Being housed is highly desirable and has sharply driven up the cost in places where people are housed.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#619

Post by alistairSH »

tayo42 wrote: post #514
ndesaulniers wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR is not your friend. Corporate Confidential by Cynthia Shapiro is a recommended read. My advice; get a better offer elsewhere, then see if HR wants to pay you your worth.

Idk how people can even work in hr. Like how dead does your soul need to be to have such a old job.

You do realize “HR” encompasses a wide variety of positions, right? They aren’t all stereotypically evil minions.

Somebody has to be a comp & benefits analyst.

Somebody has to be a recruiter.

Somebody has to manage the PIPs.

Somebody has to have knowledge of the legal obligations of both sides of the employment agreement.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#620

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

legitster wrote: post #150
bick_nyers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing is pretty inelastic. I think people are just willing to suffer financially to avoid the fate of homelessness. Just because there aren't vacancies anywhere doesn't mean that the price is fully justified, because housing will take priority over groceries for a lot of people.

Housing can be very elastic. Humans can be very adaptive to compromises in living space requirements to fulfill the basic needs. Part of the problem is that the lower end of potential inventory (pod apartments/SRO/etc) are essentially illegal in this country. So the barriers to entry make it seem much more inelastic.

> Part of the problem is that the lower end of potential inventory (pod apartments/SRO/etc) are essentially illegal in this country. So the barriers to entry make it seem much more inelastic.

This is true. A decade ago this area was among the cheapest in the nation but now is solidly in the expensive category.

In between were moratorium on apartment construction (the last non-premium housing still being built) and a sudden influx of CA & NY sized dollars. The never-stopping, double digit, yearly insurance increases - that just levels it all up.

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