Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

openresearchlab.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

611–620 of 669 posts

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#611

Post by titanomachy »

RRWagner wrote: post #586

Real question: What is to stop someone with power/money from taking advantage (or just fooling) someone with UBI to sign away their future UBI income? For example, the UBI person wants to buy a car, but has nothing other than UBI, the car dealer says, "no problem, just sign here and all your UBI for the next 5 years will pay for the car. Not our problem if you don't have anywhere to park it or gas to run it". Histori…

If the income really is guaranteed, competition in UBI-secured lending should eventually drive margins down to the point where the borrowing cost approaches the risk-free interest rate, so at least people are getting a reasonable deal on their loan.

Of course, it's still a serious social problem if people borrow against their future earnings to buy expensive things and then go years without enough money for food. It might not even be irrational, for example someone might borrow to pay for a life-saving surgery for a family member.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#612

Post by s1artibartfast »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #590
s1artibartfast wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ps, the people want Ubi as a replacement to means tested welfare and Social Services, consider what level of Ubi would be required for an unemployed or disabled mother of two

That's just another assumption you're adding into the ring. I see no reason why UBI would replace disability. It wouldn't even make sense to. They solve different problems.

really? How are they different? I thought the point was the same: make sure people have enough income to survive without working. Why does the reason for them not working change how much they need to live?

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#613

Post by fragmede »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #612
xboxnolifes wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just another assumption you're adding into the ring. I see no reason why UBI would replace disability. It wouldn't even make sense to. They solve different problems.

really? How are they different? I thought the point was the same: make sure people have enough income to survive without working. Why does the reason for them not working change how much they need to live?

if you're in a country where healthcare costs to the individual can be considerable, someone who's disability costs them extra money would need additional funds to get to a baseline of living. Eg I don't need a wheelchair to get around, so my cost of living does not include buying and maintaining a wheelchair. Someone who does would need to pay for that somehow.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#614

Post by sdkdfjdlkdsj »

HPsquared wrote: post #397
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least you technically never have less money from more work (but only if you consider bureaucracy free; there is severe bureaucracy especially for those that fluctuate in and out of coverage). When the effective marginal tax rate is high, this is often as close as makes no difference, because you not only have the cost of bureaucracy but also the cost of working . You're paying an effective marginal tax rate of 8…

Maybe it could be reframed as "incremental hourly income". Partial derivative of disposable income w.r.t hours worked (including time overheads)

[flagged]

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#615

Post by talldatethrow »

pcrh wrote: post #603
talldatethrow wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think why people work at the jobs they do is a lot more complicated than that. Many people do work to avoid starvation PLUS maintain whatever level of standards they've become comfortable with. But the reason IMO people work non basic jobs is because if they are already forced to work their entire lives to avoid starvation, they might as well optimize. If I have to commute, and maintain a car, and be there for 40+…

Agreed. Such variable motivations for work and money apply to those on low incomes as much as they apply to those on high incomes. There's no a-priori reason why one would expect those who receive UBI to be work-shy.

It makes you work shy because unless you have a high paying job, it doesn't make sense to work.

$3k with tons of free time all week.

Or add working for $3k extra money by giving up all your free time? Not worth it.

Unless of course apartments become $5k a month since that's about the money that a person on UBI plus a bad job has..

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#616

Post by littlestymaar »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #604
onli wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. There is ceiling that is unreachably low. Heating is also not included,so in no way is everything else covered. To others: This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this. Don't believe a single bit, they do not describe the state of the country nor how the policies work. It is a common wave of propaganda th…

> That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this This is not true. I live in Germany. I have family members in the system on both sides. I read news from all isles. Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you ge…

> Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you get welfare benefits this high. Our welfare benefits are so high, the sudden drop in benefits reduces benefits from earning more money by insane margins.

It's very funny, because people with the same political opinions as you in my country are absolutely positive that this is the case for my country instead (France).

And in practice they are pretty similar (as are many European systems unsurprisingly, we all draw inspiration on each other) and as someone who knows the French social system fairly well I can assure you that the trope you hear from right wing politicians on TV is nothing but lies.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#617

Post by littlestymaar »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #605
littlestymaar wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money which itself barely covers the cost that having kids puts on you… People living out of it are living in absolute misery, well under the poverty line.

False. They are not living in "absolute misery". The highest germany court has established this in the past. German welfare is among the highest in the world. I also know this personally, I have lived on the past (even more strict) alternative to "Bürgergeld" for the first 18 years of my life. German welfare guarantees you food, an apartment for you and your children, public schooling, funding for school projects and…

I've personally given benefits to these people, and I can assure you that you live in a fiction built for you by propaganda on TV.

Are these people better than those in Gaza? Sure but their life is still insanely hard.

You said you lived this way for the first 18 years of your life, then ask your parents how much sacrifices they made so you can feel this comfortable. If you never skipped meal because you could not afford food, be sure that your parents were and just hid it from you out of dignity.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#618

Post by yibg »

mandmandam wrote: post #416
yibg wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way to get to A is through people working. We didn’t get from where we were 100 years ago to now because society as a whole was fine with working the minimum amount needed to sustain life.

From the graph posted above: Productivity gains since 1950 - 253% Wage growth since 1950 - 115% We could be in society A right now if those gains weren't hoovered up by the yacht class.

People consume a hell of a lot more now than 1950. Houses are bigger, we buy more clothes, eat more food, have more gadgets. The yacht class can only consume so much.

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#619

Post by selfmodruntime »

onli wrote: post #608
selfmodruntime wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this This is not true. I live in Germany. I have family members in the system on both sides. I read news from all isles. Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you ge…

For a more full picture have a look at https://www.ifo.de/publikationen/2024/aufsatz-zeitschrift/lo... (though the ifo is not always trustworthy). There exist specific scenarios where there is not enough money remaining when you pick up work with a better salary. Even I know scenarios like that, for example when getting unemployment benefits, all money earned at the side is lost, which is just stupid if you wanted pe…

> What makes it rightwing propaganda is taking these cases and claiming that it would explain why people don't want to work anymore

I still don't agree it's right wing propaganda. Bürgergeld is just one part of a larger picture of why people don't want to work anymore. The reality is that social welfare in its entirety is too close to what you can earn with low skilled work, wages are too low and benefits are too high and cut off too suddenly.

> It's not the amount, as in 99% of scenarios being on state welfare completely sucks in Germany

Again, I can not confirm. I have lived on state welfare (Hartz IV) for my entire life before moving out of my parents.

> it's the scenario of not having enough money for food at the end of the month, being scared to heat in the winter and each unforeseen bill a mayor crisis.

This is not true in my experience. I don't know where you're getting this information from. Heating costs were always covered unless you heat like a maniac and unforseen bills are not happening. Where should they? Your apartment and car fixing costs are covered. You can read more about this here: [1]

> Also, it is also not okay to not mention that bürgergeld is still combined with sanctions. If not taking up (usual shitty ) work it can be lost, or missing a summoning, etc. Being in that system is thus highly stressful. Those sanctions were supposed to go away, instead they were made harder. Thanks SPD.

Why shouldn't they take up shitty work? It's not undignified. My mother stocked shelves for Aldi. She worked gas stations. She did community work. She couldn't hold a job for long. It's hard work and that's okay. You don't have the right to dodge shitty work just because you don't think it's gratifying. It's also not as stressful as you make it out to be. You have to remember, you're still getting so much stuff for free there are millions of people who would die for that chance. A little stress still makes it worth it.

Yes, you need to be smart with money. That's okay. Welfare should not make for a live of comfortable spending. But people don't live in a state of desolation. The point of welfare is to enable people who can't work to live a dignified live. Not a comfortable one. We're just so out of touch in Germany, people on our welfare system can't see their incredible privilege.

[1]: https://www.inside-digital.de/news/buergergeld-jobcenter-bez....

Re: Unconditional Cash Study: first findings available

#620

Post by selfmodruntime »

littlestymaar wrote: post #616
selfmodruntime wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just not true. Bürgergeld does not cover real rent costs for example. Yep. That's where "Wohngeld" comes in. > This thread is full of propaganda from the neoliberal and extreme right like this This is not true. I live in Germany. I have family members in the system on both sides. I read news from all isles. Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you ge…

> Fact is, our social welfare state is unmatched compared to any other country. Nowhere else will you get welfare benefits this high. Our welfare benefits are so high, the sudden drop in benefits reduces benefits from earning more money by insane margins. It's very funny, because people with the same political opinions as you in my country are absolutely positive that this is the case for my country instead (France).…

Both can be right in their own way. I'm not saying we should get rid of our welfare. I'm just saying our people are missing the point. It's incredible privilege to live here. You think they would get the same welfare in the US, in China, Ghana or Russia? Think again. They should be grateful is what I'm saying.
Post reply on HN