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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#611

Post by GordonS »

tromp wrote: post #588
incognos wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot declare war on a territory you occupy and control. It is as if the United States declared war on Washington DC or any of their numerous prisons.

Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.

> They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza

"only" is used here to diminish the suffering of the Gazan people. Israel has had Gaza under a brutal blockade, across air, land and sea. They control everything that enters or leaves, and infamously were so cruel they counted the calories entering Gaza [0] [1]. Israel even claims control of the air over Gaza, and prevents civilians from collecting rainwater [2] [3] [4].

Israel has been enforcing collective punishment for decades - they want that land, and they want it only for themselves.

[0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-counted-calorie-require...

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-c...

[2] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occu...

[3] https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2016-06-22/ty-article/.premi...

[4] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/10/debunking-some-...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#612

Post by incognos »

leereeves wrote: post #16
dang wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN's standard about this question has been stable for many years: some stories with political overlap are both inevitable and in keeping with the mandate of the site. The question, when it comes to the biggest political topics, is which stories clear that bar. I've posted about this many times, including quite a few explanations specific to the current topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 (Feb 2024) h…

If this topic merits discussion on HN, can you do something about the flagging? It seems like someone is flagging every comment to prevent discussion.

To prevent the flagging you would have to block an entire country which has an army of people trying to prevent discussion as we speak.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#613

Post by rendall »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #547
rendall wrote: post #454

[flagged]

Let's be generous and take Israeli estimates: 10,000 civilians, excluding Hamas fighters. The initial militant attack took 253 people hostage. As reprehensible as that is, it's not worth 10,000 civilian deaths.

You would be correct were the war about retaliation. It is not retaliation. It is a military operation. It is a military operation to remove an implacable enemy who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure. This is an enemy who would kill more than 30,000 Israeli citizens if it could. Hamas would kill every single Israeli if it acquired the weapons to do so. We know this because they frequently fire rockets at civilian targets. They are doing so even now as you read this. Hamas would kill every single Israeli even if it meant killing thousands of Palestinians. We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades.

Further, when you compare civilian casualties to other wars, even other wars in neighboring countries, the casualty rate is extremely low.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#614

Post by hef19898 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #573
hef19898 wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All fine, even if I don't buy it. Also, Israel actively, and openly, supported Hamas as a counter to Hizbollah (just a side note). Still doesn't justify the conduct of war in Gaza we see, because so far nil on taking out the Hamas leadership you mentioned. And going by public statement of senior Israeli government officials (which by no means is representative of all Israelis nor all jews), the goal is more a depopul…

It's possible, there was an article in the NYT and reports elsewhere in the press a couple months ago on how Netanyahu directly funded Hamas because he though they were the best foil to a two-state solution. That guy is such an idiot.

Yeah, on Netanyahu we agree. He is also dangerous, as his attempt (?) of dismantling the judiciary branch of government showed. He absolutely is part of the group of wannabe authocrats in Western-style democracies: Trump, Le Pen, the AfD, Meloni, Erdogan, Modi... The list is quite long, unfortunately.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#615

Post by GordonS »

Israel prevents foreign journalists from entering Gaza to cover the conflict - that fact alone should cast heavy doubt on their intentions.

Many journalists appear to have been deliberately targeted: killed by snipers, bombed while sleeping in their own homes, or hit by airstrikes while travelling.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#616

Post by bawolff »

GordonS wrote: post #524
bawolff wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are talking about Gaza. The only Israelis being shot there are Israeli militari attacking the Gaza strip. What exactly do you think happened on oct 7? > If you are talking missiles, well Israel should abandon the colonies and create a no man's land where no civilian, be it Israeli or Palestinian, can go, and only shoot those that trespass. They did do that to Gaza in 2005. That is how we arrived at the current s…

> They did do that to Gaza in 2005. That is how we arrived at the current situation. No, they didn't "do that to Gaza" - Israel has kept Gaza under a brutal blockade, by air, land and sea. Israel kept the place like an open air prison, and had it surrounded by military outposts and remotely operated guns. Hundreds of civilians were shot in 2023 prior to Oct 7th, including peaceful protesters.

The person i was responding to didn't say israel should stop the blockade. They said israel should dismantle their colonies. Which they did in Gaza in 2005. There are no colonies currently in gaza.

It should also be noted that the blockade happened in 2007, so there was a 2 year period there. In any case, the israeli withdrawl is one of the key historical facts that lead to the current geopolitical context.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#617

Post by gryzzly »

GordonS wrote: post #593
gryzzly wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is "Israel"? are you referring to the people of Israel? Do you believe that 9 million Israelis have interest of killing and displacing Palestinians and crush them as a people? and what interest Palestinians have in regard to Israelis from your point of view?

Going by Israeli TV, Telegram channels and polls, unfortunately it really does seem like a large proportion of Israelis think of Palestinians as sub-human bugs to be crushed. Already we've seen settlers building an "outpost" inside Gaza, while Israeli soldiers watch on. Meanwhile, Israeli civilians block aid to starving children, again while the IDF watch.

and any reason you decided not to answer the second part of the question?

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#618

Post by GordonS »

rendall wrote: post #613
LAC-Tech wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be generous and take Israeli estimates: 10,000 civilians, excluding Hamas fighters. The initial militant attack took 253 people hostage. As reprehensible as that is, it's not worth 10,000 civilian deaths.

You would be correct were the war about retaliation. It is not retaliation. It is a military operation. It is a military operation to remove an implacable enemy who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure. This is an enemy who would kill more than 30,000 Israeli citizens if it could. Hamas would kill every single Israeli if it acquired the…

> This is an enemy who would kill more than 10,000 if it could

And yet, it's Israel that has killed 30-50k... so far.

> who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure

Gaza is a very dense, urban area, so it's kind of unavoidable. And you know as well as I do that these "rockets" are barely more than overgrown fireworks - they are mostly symbolic. That said, I do feel like Hamas are fools for continuing to fire them - I understand they need to resist blockade, occupation and dehumanisation, but I just can't see how this could possibly help.

> We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades

Except, thats not really true, is it? Hamas have been openly saying for several years now that they have no beef with people of the Jewish faith, they just want their homes back.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#620

Post by GordonS »

bawolff wrote: post #616
GordonS wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They did do that to Gaza in 2005. That is how we arrived at the current situation. No, they didn't "do that to Gaza" - Israel has kept Gaza under a brutal blockade, by air, land and sea. Israel kept the place like an open air prison, and had it surrounded by military outposts and remotely operated guns. Hundreds of civilians were shot in 2023 prior to Oct 7th, including peaceful protesters.

The person i was responding to didn't say israel should stop the blockade. They said israel should dismantle their colonies. Which they did in Gaza in 2005. There are no colonies currently in gaza. It should also be noted that the blockade happened in 2007, so there was a 2 year period there. In any case, the israeli withdrawl is one of the key historical facts that lead to the current geopolitical context.

> They said israel should dismantle their colonies

Sure, but the implication was that Gazans were then "free" with self-determination; I wanted to point out that the situation is not so clear-cut.

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