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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#611

Post by nahumfarchi »

biorach wrote: post #360
rehitman wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement is very uninformed. Isreal left Gaza very logn time ago. They had an election and Hamas came to power, and they never hold an election after. There is no land dispute between Isreal and Gaza (Unlike Westbank where there are serious disputes). The main problem is that Hamas and its supporter Iran consistentnly in word and in practice declared that want to wipe out and destroy Isreal. It is not about som…

> Hamas need to agree that Israel has the right to exist. Agreed And maybe Israel needs to agree that Palestine has the right to exist

Israel is a democracy made up of various parties with a whole spectrum of opinions. Some are for a two state solution (center-left), some for a one state solution in the form of "greater israel" (hard right, fringe elements if you ask me), and others that honestly just don't give it much thought. Hamas, on the other hand, is quite ideological about its stance with regards to the destruction of Israel.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#612

Post by h3rsko »

nico wrote: post #589
emptyfile wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

> Gaza is the agressor Sure, if you completely ignore any previous history and the fact that Israel was created by stealing Palestinians’ land From the other side, you could say Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves This is not war, this is a brutal genocidal occupation that started many years ago and that Israel is trying to “complete” now by forcefully displacing all Palestinians The end goal seems t…

Israel was not created by "stealing Palestinian land."

"Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves." Do you mean when they explode suicide vests and shoot rockets at cities? Is that what you call defending themselves?

"genocidal occupation..." I find it hilarious that people can say a population with some of the highest growth on the planet is at the same time suffering a genocide.

"The end goal seems to be to occupy as much of “ancestral Israel” as possible." Explain how forcing your citizens to leave Gaza in 2005 fits into this master plan.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#613

Post by roenxi »

iteratethis wrote: post #540
psipisi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This has the typical "man dead, woman most affected" energy of modern feminism.

Although I got a good chuckle out of that, don't lose sight of the bigger goal here. Fighting needs to stop or, failing that, be contained. We want to create low-stress, high-comfort, high opportunity situations.

If doing that involves building coalitions with people who don't care about men dying then so be it. If they do care then so be it. The important thing is where the opinion goes regarding war. What motivates it deserves discussion, but as long as the direction is good that is the most important thing settled.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#614

Post by megous »

drc500free wrote: post #376
dang wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you're of course right—and at the same time, if I ask myself how to follow HN's core principle [1] in relation to this topic, I can't see "don't touch it at all" as right either. It may be an impossible quandary—but it's not in the spirit of this place to take an easy way out; or to put it differently, the easy way out (if one exists) is not in the spirit of this place. What does "curiosity" mean in a context li…

Al Jazeera is state propaganda run by the Qataris, who also fund Hamas. The one topic that they absolutely cannot provide unbiased commentary on is Israel-Palestine. Picking an AJ article as the jumping off point is akin to picking a Pravda or RT article as the jumping off point to discuss Ukraine-Russia. I think this community is better than most at keeping things analytical, and you're better than any other moderat…

Said article is not a commentary. It's pure reporting.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#615

Post by xg15 »

refurb wrote: post #609
xg15 wrote: post #525

I don't want to start another top-level thread on this topic, as it is contentious enough already - but just as an aside, the UN General Assembly just passed a (symbolic) resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire with 153 to 10, an even stronger majority than the last resolution. Of course UN votes are always subject to all kinds of political considerations and power dynamics and the saying "nations have no frien…

It doesn’t really say anything. Why? Because the cost of voting is zero. The UN is toothless. In fact, you’ll see many countries who are actively benefiting from the conflict through arms sales voting for a ceasefire. In fact, the UN often nicely provides political cover for countries. It lets them do whatever they want behind the scenes then vote for peace and then trumpet it in their domestic media.

> In fact, you’ll see many countries who are actively benefiting from the conflict through arms sales voting for a ceasefire.

Which ones specifically do you mean here? This would be a really interesting information in this whole topic.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#616

Post by monocasa »

ido wrote: post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

I mean, even Hamas currently calls for the '67 borders in their charter:

> 20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170510123932/http://hamas.ps/e...

Adding to show that the '67 borders are pretty generally supported. There's even support for them among some of the "from the river to the sea" crowd since the '67 borders touch both the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#617

Post by gotoeleven »

megous wrote: post #583
amluto wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think your take is entirely unreasonable, but I do think you’ve missed a critical detail: Hamas continues to attack Israel. So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose. As I understand it (and wow, the press coverage is incomplete in so many ways), Hamas has a very large number of, approximately, these things: https://en.m.wikipe…

> Hamas continues to attack Israel. The rocket launches are usually framed as response to massacres, if you read the launch announcements, btw. In any case, it's quite doubtful that Israel would stop its aggression, if Gaza would stop firing rockets. The goal has been to "eliminate Hamas" for a few months already, if you want to believe the Israel government's statements. There's no "but if the rocket attacks stop" e…

The bombing would stop tomorrow if hamas were to release the hostages and surrender. They started this war and it is completely in their power to end it so every death in gaza is their fault.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#618

Post by neoromantique »

kamikazeturtles wrote: post #598
marcell wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTA: > Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products. > > Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm. It sounds like an eff…

I understand the benefit extra work permits would've brought to Gaza's economy but removing the blockade would do a lot more to help Gaza's economy. Work permits are just a bandaid over a much wider occupation.

The blockade didn't originate from some Israeli hatred towards Gaza, it had very clear and objective reasons, so far we only see confirmations of why it was necessary.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#619

Post by ZunarJ5 »

hersko wrote: post #371
ZunarJ5 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additional friendly reminder that Bush Jr is responsible for Hamas. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-electe...

Don't treat the Palestinians like they have no agency...

Never said that they were saints. It's important to know what you're actually dealing with though.

From the article:

"In other words, Hamas’ absolute rule of Gaza is not what the Palestinians voted for back in 2006. In fact, since the median age of Gazans is 18, half of Hamas’ subjects weren’t even born when the election took place."

I cannot help but see most of the arguments that people make equating Hamas with Palestinians as bad faith. Explanations are not excuses and knowing why things are happening is the first real step towards fixing anything.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#620

Post by NotSammyHagar »

hersko wrote: post #371
ZunarJ5 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additional friendly reminder that Bush Jr is responsible for Hamas. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-electe...

Don't treat the Palestinians like they have no agency...

They have no power, and israel and hamas are killing them in the middle of their war. That is just a misleading comment. They have very very very little power to change things right now. It looks like people are just hoping not to die, and people are dieing all around them.
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