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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#611

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

rgbgraph wrote: post #467
jaegerpicker wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to cla…

Full disclosure, I usually do not involve myself with large groups -- so my views are likely to be a bit more innocent/naive. The past that I lived in was comprised of people you personally knew; not anonymous membership in a large organization or group, where you could never hope to know everyone on a personal level. There was very little opportunity for people to be unchecked dicks to one another, because you saw e…

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#612

Post by draw_down »

lolinder wrote: post #505
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

Some important context that's missing from your summary (and something I wasn't aware of until I dug into it more) is that the author was a member of Rust's core team [0] and the interim leadership group responsible for designing Rust's new governance structure [1]. They were the one who posted the new RFC on project governance [2]. This isn't a case of one person who was powerless to stop what happened and felt that…

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#613

Post by patrick451 »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #433
rgbgraph wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, no kidding: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes_in_the... Mod response: > For all those wondering about removed comments, there was some trolling going on which was summarily removed by the mods. > Please avoid any trolling and/or drama seeking comments and remember our subreddit rules. "Trolling" on display in the archives of that thread: https://www.reveddit.com/v/rust/comments/vxgzrl/changes…

I've been involved with Software Development for over 20 years started with VB6 and some perl/python in 1998. I saw the "informal code of conduct" and it never worked. What really happened: many people were treating terribly and most of it was swept under the rug. CoC were created for valid and good reasons. I'm not defending the Rust community here, it seems childish to me. The past is not what you are trying to cla…

And now we have a CoC and people are still mistreated. smh.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#615

Post by calibas »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #537
calibas wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. I'm not sure what SJW or "woke" means in this context. They cancelled a black man because they felt "discomfort" over him being the keynote speaker.

But the fact that he was black is a non-factor here, and shouldn't even be mentioned.

Why? Am I to believe the Rust leadership is so enlightened they're incapable of racial discrimination?

There's a reason people don't want to talk about racism, and it's not because it doesn't exist anymore...

Re: Why I Left Rust

#616

Post by croes »

mwcampbell wrote: post #473
croes wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since micro aggressions are a thing number 2 is hardly possible.

That's not my understanding of micro-aggressions [1]. IIUC, inadvertently doing a micro-aggression isn't being an asshole, but persisting in it after it has been pointed out definitely is. [1]: Disclosure: I'm a minority (disabled), but I'm also a white man.

The question is whether everything that is called a micro aggression is one.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#617

Post by malodyets »

arijun wrote: post #114
chillbill wrote: post #79

I haven't seen anyone bring this up, so I will. I read through the original blog post from JeanHeyd[1] and in no way do they mention anything related to being a person of color, why then does JT associate it with that? I have no idea about the inner workings of the rust leadership team and who they are even, but from the timeline described and from the original post, there's nothing the could be related to that. Jean…

I agree with your statement as a whole but have a small nitpick (on your small nitpick) > as if white is not a color But ‘person of color’ doesn’t include white people in the same way that ‘anti-semitic’ doesn’t include racism against Arabs. Yes, Arabs are also of Semitic descent, and yes white is a color, the meanings are not one-to-one mapped from their components. To deny that is to deny large portions of the Engl…

Agreed - see Etymological Fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy>

Re: Why I Left Rust

#618

Post by pphysch »

xyzzyz wrote: post #484
fatneckbeard wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I worry about this. There was no "C leadership", it was simple enough that dozens of people created their own compilers within a few years of C existing. this was back before the internet. they had companies sprouting up like Borland just making C compilers for personal home computers. C just ... spread. All these kids learning Arduino in school, they are learning C. There basically is no other usable compiler t…

Rust is winning market from C and C++ precisely because of strong technical leadership and direction. It couldn’t have made much progress by taking similar hands off approach as C, because C is already more than good enough C.

> Rust is winning market from C and C++ precisely because of strong technical leadership and direction.

Hmm, not sure about that one. Rust has an enormous hype component to it, more than any other language I'm aware of.

It may have strong technical leadership, but saying it's gaining market share "precisely" because of it is precisely misleading.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#619

Post by dagmx »

philstephenson wrote: post #608
dagmx wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re ascribing affirmative action to this when that wasn’t what was suggested. The person in question called out bias and then asked what could be done. That’s exactly the same as you suggested. The person I replied to then spun that out as reverse racism. Which is a very common tactic to squash actual discussion on the topic of biases in the industry.

I agree with you though about the cries about reverse racism. Not helpful to the discussion. But I also believe that when someone cries out bias or discrimination by some group because of underrepresentation or lack of diversity, they are implying that affirmative action is the way to solve it. Maybe I'm putting words into people's mouths there, but it's just anecdotal

“They are implying” is putting words in their mouths like you say.

There’s a whole field of nuance in between “do nothing” and “affirmative action”. People deserve the benefit of not having someone else’s argument ascribed to them.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#620

Post by june_twenty »

Let's take a step back for a moment. All of these people involved are working on the language that would/might be one of the big languages in the future. It doesn't fill me with hope.
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