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The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

newyorker.com

611–620 of 747 posts

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#611
post #33

It's an interesting article and if you bounced off it because you had a visceral reaction to the premise, like I did at first, I'd recommend taking another whack at it. Jill Lepore, if you're not familiar with her work, is a historian with a reputation as a more rigorous version of people like Howard Zinn. I don't think it's a good article though. In particular, I don't think it coheres. It's about how the modern Con…

> I think the rigidity of the Constitution is probably it's greatest strength It's not just the Constitution, it's the entirety of the American system, which seems designed to use "checks and balances" as veritable roadblocks to slow everything down. I agree that - in theory - it's great and very smart, because if the government was indeed designed around truths that are self-evident (i.e. inherently "true" and immut…

"So we ended up with a country that claimed that all men are created equal but did not actually adhere to this."

lol - and yet we did eventually fix it. So much for the unchangeability of US government. So yeah, the rigidity still worked - and continues to work. It's absolutely not a bug, but the most important feature in preserving our republic.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#612
post #33

It's an interesting article and if you bounced off it because you had a visceral reaction to the premise, like I did at first, I'd recommend taking another whack at it. Jill Lepore, if you're not familiar with her work, is a historian with a reputation as a more rigorous version of people like Howard Zinn. I don't think it's a good article though. In particular, I don't think it coheres. It's about how the modern Con…

“Think the rigidity of the Constitution is probably it's greatest strength.”

What if you’re not a liberal but haven’t figured that out yet? Sanctity of the constitution appears to me to be the defining feature of much conservative thinking, or so they say.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 10th amendment basically says any power not granted to the federal government and not banned by the Constitution is left to the state. Secession is never mentioned in the Constitution and as such states have every right to vote to leave. The Supreme Court has previously erroneously ruled that the federal government had the authority to stop it despite that power not having been granted to the federal government.

Texas v. White was a lot more complex than that; Specifically, the court claimed that the Constitution, in its effort to "form a more perfect union," precluded secession. Secession was inherently unconstitutional, because its foundations are that the "more perfect" union is imperfect and not salvageable by any action - short of divorce. Supreme Court Justice Salmon P. Chase in 1869, Chief Justice at the time: "When,…

I understand what the Supreme Court said. There are a few problems with it though.

1. The founders wholly rejected that notion. The Declaration of Independence says

>When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation

>That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

>But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

The Colonies were allowed to rid themselves of the British Government but the states aren't allowed to rid themselves of the American government? That makes no sense. The Founding Fathers would have had no issue with secession. Either the American Revolution was illegitimate or the southern one was legitimate. The British Empire made the same argument that the Supreme Court did. The British were wrong just like the Court.

2. If a state cannot leave, then how did the Southern States become military districts? Where in the Constitution does it give the federal government the right to strip states of statehood?

3. There was consent of the states who left to leave. I'm not sure why another state needs to be involved since the 10th amendment doesn't require the consent of other states.

4. If you have a glass of water. You take a sip of water you still have a glass of water. If a state leaves the Union you still have a union. If changing the amount of state destroys the union then I am not sure how adding to the Union does not do the same.

The Supreme Court ruled this way to provide cover for the unconstitutional actions of the federal government. They banned actions that were both allowed and they themselves did. To use a word from the Deceleration of Independence, that is despotism.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#614
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was Obama ever at risk of not getting two terms considering the Republican candidates? It's not guaranteed, but you can usually guess when Presidents are popular enough to stick around for 2 terms.

In hindsight, no, at the time, absolutely. If things had gone a bit differently, he would've failed. I mean the 2012 election was about equivalent to the 2020 election, numbers wise.

It also shouldn’t matter. He wins a second term, he gets a second SC pick. Longest serving justices get retired on a schedule.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#615
post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the rigidity of the Constitution is probably it's greatest strength It's not just the Constitution, it's the entirety of the American system, which seems designed to use "checks and balances" as veritable roadblocks to slow everything down. I agree that - in theory - it's great and very smart, because if the government was indeed designed around truths that are self-evident (i.e. inherently "true" and immut…

"So we ended up with a country that claimed that all men are created equal but did not actually adhere to this." lol - and yet we did eventually fix it. So much for the unchangeability of US government. So yeah, the rigidity still worked - and continues to work. It's absolutely not a bug, but the most important feature in preserving our republic.

> "So we ended up with a country that claimed that all men are created equal but did not actually adhere to this."

> yet we did eventually fix it. So much for the unchangeability of US government.

As far as I understand, African Americans were still not considered equal in many states over 100 years after the very bloody Civil War to abolish slavery of African Americans. I don't consider this a good example of a highly changeable government. Or am I misunderstanding your point of the US "eventually fixing it"? 100 years is not a trivial amount of time in a country that is only a little over 200 years old.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#616
post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So we ended up with a country that claimed that all men are created equal but did not actually adhere to this." lol - and yet we did eventually fix it. So much for the unchangeability of US government. So yeah, the rigidity still worked - and continues to work. It's absolutely not a bug, but the most important feature in preserving our republic.

> "So we ended up with a country that claimed that all men are created equal but did not actually adhere to this." > yet we did eventually fix it. So much for the unchangeability of US government. As far as I understand, African Americans were still not considered equal in many states over 100 years after the very bloody Civil War to abolish slavery of African Americans. I don't consider this a good example of a high…

You're confusing government with citizens. The letter of the law changed but the culture lagged behind.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#617
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supreme Court rulings are not a popularity contest. It’s intended as an independent (as independent a nominated body can be) that interprets the laws the Congress passes within the confines of the Constitution. I for one would fear living in a country where the courts were swayed by public sentiment.

The SCOTUS is "independent" in the sense that it does not have any person or institution they have to answer to, but I'm not sure if that's really all that relevant. The individual members have vastly different views on how to interpret the law, and are clearly put in place for political reasons. And courts should be "swayed by public sentiment". A judge's job is "to judge", and general societal attitudes play part o…

There are very few universal beliefs among humans, as such, any position of power is going to have a political aspect to it. It's unavoidable.

Suffice to say, both parties' presidents have nominated Supreme Court justices that never made it past confirmation. Despite the voting procedure, both parties need to find nominees that are at least palatable to some portion of both parties. Extremes in either direction are generally dropped pretty quickly.

And courts are swayed by public sentiment, but it generally takes a long time for such social sentiment to filter up to the courts. And that's a good thing. The last thing we need is a court that decides cases on the whim's and fancies of the average voter.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#618
post #503
post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a democratic republic. I have a distaste for conservative arguments to begin with but the wheedling pedantry of this one they always trout out to ignore the word “democratic” in the description to justify anti democratic measures always manages to annoy me just a little bit harder

Federal rebulic. It seems that Federal word is way too often forgotten. Maybe first amendment to constitution moving forward should be getting rid of it and just moving everything to single level, currently federal, but after not.

You could say federal democratic republic or federated democratic republic if you want, but it being federated does not remove the democracy portion

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then you site one of those politicians who wrote actual thoughtful discourse. Is there a single politician in office or who has recently left office in America who has written anything approaching the thoughtfulness of even this short piece? I have to believe that even if it were true that many or most politicians in 1780 were similar to politicians today on levels that you mention that they still had a serious c…

In what forum today are politicians given an opportunity to speak/write intellectually? Sadly too, there has been for some time an under current of anti-intellectualism in politics. It is my understanding that Barack Obama, as an example, is highly educated, no doubt could engage in lofty discussions… that would be political suicide.

> In what forum today are politicians given an opportunity to speak/write intellectually?

That quote is from a letter from Jefferson to Madison.

Barack Obama famously wrote a book. A "leader" leads by example. So I have a different take than your "sadly politicians are discouraged from thinking" and it goes like this:

Patronizing and conditioning the political discourse to be at the level of 'high school civics class' is a powerful mechanism for keeping actual thinkers away from politics.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does all the "nation building" around the world by the United States never result in a US style constitution, but seemingly inevitably in something closer to the German one? Then again, US nation building tends to be an abysmal failure (though, tbf, constitutional structure is not high on the list of defensible reasons for that.)

The nation building after WW2 for Germany & Japan worked out rather well.

> The nation building after WW2 for Germany & Japan worked out rather well.

The US took exquisite care after WWII, to the point of sharply limiting things like denazification, to preserve civic and administrative infrastructure of the relatively advanced states it occupied to avoid having to nation-build in Germany and Japan.

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