Live data from Hacker News

What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

retool.com

611–620 of 703 posts

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#611
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The competition is generally worse. I tell it as someone who saw few different products offered by the competition. This doesn't mean that SAP is good. Also this doesn't mean that there isn't space for someone who could do it better by starting with a clean state (what sounds easy, but is actually very, very hard to pull off). First you should know that the market for ERP systems is very wide. There are LOTS of vario…

Going away from SQL Tables based storage to RDF type store (that can model graphs) with a powerful scheme validation system seem like it would make sense given the insane complexity of the data models involved. I have done work with some subsystems like you would also find in SAP and usually I found the SQL Databases weren't that amazing at modeling what I wanted. But I don't know enough of how these systems work. Do…

SAP has changed its architecture from "old" SAP R3 / ECC to "new" SAP HANA. The "new" HANA is not that new -> it was made few years ago, but when it first came out it was quite undercooked. In addition due to the nature of ERPs, it takes often few years to upgrade from one version to another.

SAP HANA basically sits on a custom server and (as far as I know) just uses a column database. The hardware is setup/customized by SAP. Perhaps they want to squeeze some margin here too. The conspiracy theory is that it is not for speed, but to spy on their clients. Or that they dont want to deal with customers mis-configuring their servers.

As for the table structure, then most stuff sits in just big tables. I dont know if the system shards them internally; from user point the tables are just one entity, not divided by anything. You can query them without having to glue anything. For example the table AUFK has order data for all orders, in all entities, in all years. (on a side note: many other ERP systems make separate tables for each year, what is a pain in the butt for reporting, but also allows to shard the data easier). SAP also has this concept of "MANDANT" which is kind of abstract concept of access rights, that can be compared to entity, but it is not really a financial entity (there is a field for that too). Perhaps internally the databse somehow shards the data on MANDANT level, but from user perspective you just see one big table.

And boy, some of those tables are big that you only extract deltas to your business warehouse.

>Does every location or subsystem have its own db that get some compared in the software layer or is there usually a single source of truth db somewhere?

The idea of SAP ERP (and I'd argue the idea of most ERP systems) is the ERP system is your source of truth. All its subsystems sit on one database, that (if you stay within standard) shouldnt ever break.

Many companies have other systems that "feed" data to SAP -> e.g. you do some inventory planning in some super-nice stuff, but the actual "bookkeeping" (source of truth, orders, financials) is in SAP.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#612
post #310

I worked in public accounting with some major corporations as clients. Every single company I interacted with used SAP. It is the de facto software in its field and is deeply entrenched. Its UX is the most horribly wicked thing I’ve ever come across. We would conduct walkthroughs with process control owners that showed us what they would do in SAP to perform their job functions, and it would take multiple, intelligen…

> Challenges too great for a mere startup to accomplish.

It's probably also too boring for any tech entrepreneur to even try, but disrupting the space would seem to be the white whale of startups. You never know. At one point in time nobody had a computer on their desk either.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#613
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The competition is generally worse. I tell it as someone who saw few different products offered by the competition. This doesn't mean that SAP is good. Also this doesn't mean that there isn't space for someone who could do it better by starting with a clean state (what sounds easy, but is actually very, very hard to pull off). First you should know that the market for ERP systems is very wide. There are LOTS of vario…

> table and column names are German abbreviations too). This was the craziest part of doing SAP development. (I'll admit this is an America-centric viewpoint.) But the codes to get to various screens were (to me) totally random. e.g. to create a purchase order, the code is ME21N. Only after 6 months, did my German boss let me in on the secret that all the codes "made sense" if you knew the German phrase for "purchase…

At least it's still Latin characters. Just imagine if instead of ME21N you had to enter 請求.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#614
post #310

I worked in public accounting with some major corporations as clients. Every single company I interacted with used SAP. It is the de facto software in its field and is deeply entrenched. Its UX is the most horribly wicked thing I’ve ever come across. We would conduct walkthroughs with process control owners that showed us what they would do in SAP to perform their job functions, and it would take multiple, intelligen…

I worked for a much smaller SAP competitor, long time ago. Our software was horrible too, but it was good in certain departments in certain markets. So it had decent market share and revenue.

Fresh out of college, with a full two week (!!!) training on the product, I was sent to a customer place, to build some forms for them. Apparently they were not important or big enough for senior people, so I had the privilege (!!!) of building forms using our software for this client. I spent two days building the perfect form, then suddenly all the layout was lost. I couldn’t recover the layout, I call my team. They casually say our layout engine can be finicky sometimes and will refuse to work if you annoy it too much. No one told me though.

Thankfully I found another job soon.

Many of these so called enterprise products are terrible. But they’re so entrenched that it is next to impossible to beat them. They’re also expensive and their business practices dubious.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#615
post #149
post #27

I am an SAP developer since kind of forever, my first job after university (since 2009). First I hated it, but the deeper I am entrenched, the more I see why you choose SAP: Because there really is no alternative. The data model is so complex because it is growing iteratively since the 80s. Hacker News is valuing businesses that adjust to the customer instead of going for some kind of purity. Another complexity espec…

Isn't Salesforce the alternative?

Salesforce is a crm not an erp, which is SAP's main offering, to the point where SAP is almost synonymous with its ERP product.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#616

SAP is a peddler of trash software and obscene contracts to support it. It has been around for decades, making routine business tasks nearly (or sometimes literally) impossible to execute. Even better is that it's written in some bullshit language that nobody else uses.

Hahaha, some SAP shill modded those facts and widely-accepted assertions down.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#617
post #27

I am an SAP developer since kind of forever, my first job after university (since 2009). First I hated it, but the deeper I am entrenched, the more I see why you choose SAP: Because there really is no alternative. The data model is so complex because it is growing iteratively since the 80s. Hacker News is valuing businesses that adjust to the customer instead of going for some kind of purity. Another complexity espec…

any pointers for a good introduction to SAP developement ? I need to integrate with SAP for one of our customers

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#618
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also providing basic erp, kind of salesforce like. I am not sure where they went with that but it certainly an idea that has merit Microsoft has a suite of ERP software – Microsoft Dynamics. They got it by acquiring a bunch of companies – Great Plains, Navision, Solomon, Axapta. Originally on-premise, now they encourage SaaS but some of it is still available on-premise for those who prefer that. Generally focus…

Dynamics developer at my current job now. Can confirm, working with it is just as bad as SAP or Oracle development.

I work with NetSuite. The UI is good and the customisation and integration experience is not too bad. Not all ERP software is horrible

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#619
post #78

I think the mistake with SAP, as with that other article about a modelling pyramid at Ikea, is assuming that it is possible to create one system to rule them all without it being extremely inefficient and expensive. It mirrors a dysfunctional business run on command-and-control rather than, like AWS, you have a large set of loosely affiliated teams and although you risk some duplication, it makes for much more agile…

I think part of the problem is driven by the desire to create a slick UI and wizards. These systems then underperform. I wonder if you could instead expose more of the underlying computer science stuff to the user. Give them an interface to push transactions. And a set of widgets to pull data. Keep every operation seperate and discrete even when part of a process. And let documentation and training teach the business process.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#620

> ERP isn’t cheap. A large multinational company may spend $100 million to $500 million in total on implementation: $30 million in software license fees, $200 million in consulting fees, millions for hardware, and millions more to train managers and employees. A full implementation takes four to six years. A CEO of a large chemical firm was quoted as saying, "competitive advantage in this industry might just come fro…

This is exactly what I was thinking. Spin up a whole new department that focus solely on internal tooling. Have multiple product teams that use strict agile methodologies iterating and releasing quickly. Sure it would be time consuming and expensive but so is Sap! Plus you would have much more control and flexibility over your tools
Post reply on HN