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I got pwned by my cloud costs

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Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#611

Post by Nextgrid »

brodouevencode wrote: post #324
southerntofu wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just did the calc and 600GB/day is about 55Mbit/s. That's really not a lot and if there's not too much computation server-side you could serve this from a raspberry pi at home (provided you have good uplink). But that's assuming you keep the CloudFlare cache of course, or as author mentioned himself, advertising only torrents for the multi-gig files. I really don't understand the cloud craze. Everything is more compl…

> Everything is more complex to debug, more expensive, and more shitty in all the possible ways you can imagine. Coming from traditional infrastructure and development methods, you're mostly right. Part of the expectation of the cloud is that you do things _their way_. And even then each cloud provider does things a little differently. However, if you're willing to subscribe to the way of doing things it (and you'll…

> I turn all my dev/test servers off at night and they don't cost me a thing

I bet it still costs you more than my Hetzner one despite me not having to care about turning it on or off. I mean it's great that the cloud gives you this flexibility but you wouldn't need it to begin with if it wasn't so expensive.

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#612

Post by api »

mwcampbell wrote: post #562
api wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> networking setup is free/cheap/doesn't require a Cisco cert. you can trust a developer to set things up. Bare metal hosts set up the network for you. You may need to know how to configure a local network interface. Even if you actually rack and stack many colos will give you a drop with network set up. You don't need to do what you describe unless you are building your own DC. > object storage is so much easier tha…

Have you used DataPacket? If so, how's their uptime? Do they have any sort of automated failover so your service doesn't go down if something happens to a single box or rack?

ZeroTier has stuff at DataPacket. It never goes down. We've had 1 year plus uptimes and the network is rock solid.

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#613

Post by Nextgrid »

SkipperCat wrote: post #291
southerntofu wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just did the calc and 600GB/day is about 55Mbit/s. That's really not a lot and if there's not too much computation server-side you could serve this from a raspberry pi at home (provided you have good uplink). But that's assuming you keep the CloudFlare cache of course, or as author mentioned himself, advertising only torrents for the multi-gig files. I really don't understand the cloud craze. Everything is more compl…

The cloud is great for scaling. The lead time for new servers deployed in a data center is weeks compared to seconds in the cloud. Plus there's no sunk cost in the cloud - you can turn it off when done and it evaporates. Also, the cloud offers managed software as a service. You don't have to manage your own HA DB cluster or PubSub. It's all just there and it works. That can save you a lot on technical labor costs. Bu…

> The lead time for new servers deployed in a data center is weeks compared to seconds in the cloud.

The lead time for Hetzner or OVH is measured in minutes and is appropriate for the majority of use cases. Old-school providers like these used to run the entire internet before the cloud craze started.

Colocation & own datacenter is not a good choice for most startups. Seems like a lot of people here miss a step and only go from one extreme to the other. There's a middle-ground of renting bare-metal that gives you amazing price/performance with none of the drawbacks of colocation or running your own DC.

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#614

Post by Nextgrid »

jollybean wrote: post #423
southerntofu wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just did the calc and 600GB/day is about 55Mbit/s. That's really not a lot and if there's not too much computation server-side you could serve this from a raspberry pi at home (provided you have good uplink). But that's assuming you keep the CloudFlare cache of course, or as author mentioned himself, advertising only torrents for the multi-gig files. I really don't understand the cloud craze. Everything is more compl…

"I really don't understand the cloud craze" The opposite, I don't understand why anyone would ever put up a server if they didn't have to. It's not 'processing power' that's going to be the 'big cost' for most projects. It's headcount and salary. If you can materially improve the operating ability of your company, then a few $K in cloud fees is dirt cheap. I used to work at a 'tech company' that made a physical produ…

> It's headcount and salary.

This only really applies to fully-managed services such as Heroku. Every other cloud still needs a DevOps person according to my experience in many companies.

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#615

Post by Nextgrid »

PetahNZ wrote: post #268
stickfigure wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. GCP, AWS, and Digital Ocean all have PaaS/serverless systems that eliminate the concept of VM (from your perspective). I haven't managed a production VM in many years.

Even Elastic Beanstalk, which is just EC2 instances have a checkbox for automatic 0 down time updates.

Debian and derivatives have unattended-upgrades too.

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#616

Post by manquer »

schemescape wrote: post #587
manquer wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For fixed price and fixed performance you can use bare metal providers with unmetered bandwidth generally tier 2 vendors offer that. At $20 bare metal is not easily possible, the lowest prices I have seen are usually 40-50 and above. Howveve you can get a VPS with unmetered bandwidth and no other costs at your price range [1]. The price is still fixed some performance variances may be there, at $20 minor variances ar…

Thanks! I had not heard of OVHcloud before. That looks like what I want.

Of tier 2 vendors hetzner , OVH, linode and scaleway are all pretty reliable

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#617

Post by bee_rider »

jjav wrote: post #554
martinald wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree; but I think the cloud (AWS/Azure/GCP) have sort of shielded people from how cheap/powerful the underlying hardware has became. For ~100eur/month on hertzner you can get a 16core Zen3, 128GB RAM with 8TB of NVMe SSD. Unless your stack is horrendously badly optimised you can serve SO MUCH traffic off that - definitely billions of postgres records without breaking a sweat. So the scale argument somewha…

> I don't disagree; but I think the cloud (AWS/Azure/GCP) have sort of shielded people from how cheap/powerful the underlying hardware has became. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I do find myself often surprised to realize that for a younger generation of developers they have never experienced hosting on bare metal. So they have not been exposed to costs & benefits vs. the cloud approach and feel that no local…

AWS seems to have some pretty decent Xeons (hard to tell because Intel makes special SKUs for Amazon, I think). I guess it depends on what you consider 'a pedestrian server' -- 128 threads/512GB of memory isn't cheap, although maybe in the enterprise universe maybe it is, I'm more of an academic. So, it is nicer than the 10 year old cluster I tinker around on, not as nice as the system I send real runs to...

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#618

Post by chillfox »

InsomniacL wrote: post #280
lpcvoid wrote: post #56

Can somebody explain to me why I wouldn't just rent a 40 EUR dedicated server from Hetzner with unlimited traffic and gigabit uplink? His 600GB/day is way less than what you get over a gigabit link within a day. Sure, sudden bursts would perhaps "throttle" at a gigabit, but according to his article that was only the cloudflare proxy anyhow, so no pain in having that take a few seconds longer. As far as I am concerned…

- Patching - Remediation, Monitoring, day0 response - Security Information and Event Management - exports, alerts, OS configuration - OS/Application Hardening - Encryption, Password/keys rotation, CIS/other baselines, Drift Management - Backup - Encryption, (don't forget your passwords/keys are changing), retention, data protection compliance, monitoring, alerting, test days - High Availability - replication, synchro…

Eh, if my bank goes down or gets compromised then I will hold it against them regardless of if they are self hosting or using the cloud.

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#619

Post by bastawhiz »

rawtxapp wrote: post #453
buro9 wrote: post #107

Don't put Cloudflare in front of a Cloud egress bill. i.e. don't do this: Azure|Amazon > Cloudflare Always use your own proxy where the egress is well within your free tier, i.e. do this: Azure|Amazon > Hetzner|Linode > Cloudflare Why? Because Cloudflare cache is a massively multi-tenant LRU cache and whilst hot files will be cached well (and with Cloudflare Tiered Cache even better - but this itself is a cost) anyth…

If you use argo caching on Cloudflare, it should reduce origin server load even more. Essentially, instead of going directly to your origin, cloudflare endpoint will first reach to it's root node to see if it's cached there and only that node is allowed to communicate with your origin. I see like ~95% cache hits with that turned on.

Argo does not affect caching, only performance. You're maybe mistaking it for tiered caching or a custom caching topology.

Re: I got pwned by my cloud costs

#620

Post by bastawhiz »

XCSme wrote: post #484
throwawaygh wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then you're right back to the cloud billing problem, right?

That's right, auto-scaling comes with this problem, but at least you removed one extra service/point of failure.

That's assuming you trust Linode block storage as much as you trust S3.
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