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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#611
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

Wealthy parents will still define higher standards, because they will send their kids to private schools where more advanced math is taught (e.g. Phillips Exeter Academy teaches calculus to all students and offers linear algebra, statistics, and discrete math to advanced students.[1]). Instead of opening up opportunities for all the kids, this will ensure that no poor student can compete because the courses won't eve…

On point, but its even worse than that.

As you mention, poorer students are denied the opportunity to take more advanced classes. But even those who do are faced with a massive disadvantage.

See, top tier private schools shamelessly pass students unwilling to actually learn [1]. These same schools and parents subsequently leverage connections, wealth, etc. to insert their students into prestigious schools...where they continue to not learn math (and ultimately are hand-held to high-paying, white collar jobs, but that's another story)

Net result is unfilled higher math seats filled, and with that less math competence across society. Fewer thinkers advancing our perspective, etc.

Opportunities to access these materials is key, but providing consistent standards is just as important. If we can't do that with math, where?

[1] prior work with NE boarding schools, witnessed the contortions these institutions would go through to pass / give top marks to obviously unqualified students.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the students are interested in learning a subject to a high academic standard and will be bored otherwise? I was getting lower grades at my easy "teach to the bottom 10%" public school than the very difficult private school I moved to. By just dismissing academic rigor, you are alienating the high-performers who WANT to care. That's a bad group of people for a society to ignore.

You're missing the point. The purpose of public school is to provide a basic education. If you want to do more work, or your parents want you to study more, you're free to do so. In your very own example, you went to a private school and did well. That's great, that's what's supposed to happen. What's currently happening in public schools is that too many resources are being allocated to the over achievers and not en…

Except one thing - even if you're in private school you have to pay for both. For public via taxes and private from your own pocket. It sound more like double tax for smart kids - knowledge for rich only. And just to remind that school price can be on par with University.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you really learn stats without calculus first? How would you explain continuous probability to students? If you're talking about descriptive stats and the parts that do not require calculus, then high school will teach them. As for geometry, isn't it the only course that teaches kids rigorous proof? It helps students build math maturity and is a segway into other type of proofs used in discrete maths.

I'll echo this. Everyone says "learn stats not calculus", but... statistics is based in calculus. Even discrete probability relies on a lot of infinite series. I mean we should definitely teach basic probability and combinatorics early on, but my recollection was that is the case.

You don't need much calculus to teach probabilities. So little that you could cover what you need in the first day/week.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#614
post #602
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

Your comment changed my mind about the debate in California: > Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard” To be clear: I don't know enough detail about the proposal in California to judge it, but the idea that most children might be better off learning certain subjects at a later age, when they are more mature, cannot be dismissed a priori, without facts, based on ideological arguments. Your comment reminds m…

Have you met a Finnish person? They are introspect to the point of being unable to take part in a conflict, care more about their individual peace than any collective construct.

Best in the world ? If you want muted isolated adult, probably.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#615

My parents introduced it to me at home around 4th-5th grade? So I was ~9-10yo? Not sure why delaying it will help, if anything the earlier the better. Everything I hear about "equity in education" seems to be making it worse, but more equally I guess. Like another poster already mentioned, reminds me of the Harrison Bergeron story by Vonnegut - seems like we are rapidly approaching that point. http://www.tnellen.com/…

From what I can see, most states don't teach algebra until 9th grade. Also most states are learning math better then California, so maybe it works? Of course, that might not be the cause, but just copying better performing states seems to be a safe way to try and fix California's problem.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#616
post #605

These superficial debates are in my eyes futile since they presuppose: "We ought to have a strict curriculum for a certain narrow age group." After what we have learned the last 30-50 years from cognitive sciences one has to wonder what schools are actually for, nowadays. There are most certainly not optimized for "learning" by any means. Imho to put it blatantly schools are reduced to be a effective stronghold for i…

For the majority of parents, schools are "free daycare".

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#617
post #605

These superficial debates are in my eyes futile since they presuppose: "We ought to have a strict curriculum for a certain narrow age group." After what we have learned the last 30-50 years from cognitive sciences one has to wonder what schools are actually for, nowadays. There are most certainly not optimized for "learning" by any means. Imho to put it blatantly schools are reduced to be a effective stronghold for i…

> There are most certainly not optimized for "learning" by any means.

They're daycare so their parents can be productive members of society. Learning is incidental.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#618

As I repeated said, doing away "advanced maths" will make you left people feel better and will hurt a lot of socially-economically challenged families. Those who can afford RSM or AOPS will learn algebra, if they can, as young as 3rd or 4th grade, while the kids' parents don't need to lift a finger. Those who solely rely on the public school to push their kids? They will be screwed. I have all the means to support my…

It's still being taught just later. As a parent of an advanced and behind child I support this move. It would help both.

Can you expand on how you feel it helps both?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#619
post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment changed my mind about the debate in California: > Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard” To be clear: I don't know enough detail about the proposal in California to judge it, but the idea that most children might be better off learning certain subjects at a later age, when they are more mature, cannot be dismissed a priori, without facts, based on ideological arguments. Your comment reminds m…

Have you met a Finnish person? They are introspect to the point of being unable to take part in a conflict, care more about their individual peace than any collective construct. Best in the world ? If you want muted isolated adult, probably.

None of those claims necessarily imply they are not more educated and better off.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#620
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not pick, say, the top four countries, (recently South Korea, Japan, Switzerland, and the Netherlands) and adopt their methods that are working? The critically important part of their method is funding of schools being independent from wealth of the kids’ parents. I’m not sure US can adopt that; American voters view that method as communism.

If you are referencing property taxes funding schools, you should know that it actually only funds about half of total school funding. The other half comes from federal and state governments and the way they give out funding is to selectively counteract that misallocation such that 47 states actually allocate more per-student funding to poor areas than to wealthier ones and according to this article [0], it has been…

Just to be clear, the state-level effects don’t seem to counteract the local effects based on your link
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