A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#611

Post by wheelinsupial » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

actually_a_dog wrote: post #530

Aerroon wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you look at some CS graduate making $200,000 a year and assume they'd have made $50,000 without the degree This is the problem with assessing how valuable college is: you don't know how well off the person would've been if they had chosen not to go to college. You can't just compare all the people who went to college with all the people who didn't. You end up with a selection bias. You need to compare people who…

> This is the problem with assessing how valuable college is: you don't know how well off the person would've been if they had chosen not to go to college. I think this is absolutely the key. If you just look at some of the figures given in [0], and do some simple math, you find out that someone with a bachelor's degree makes just a hair more than $26k per year more than someone with only a high school diploma. Over…

The challenge with looking at the statistics for an ROI is that lifetime earnings will vary by field of study, highest degree attained, and location. I am not familiar with US statistics agencies, but Stats Canada has looked at lifetime earnings by field of study. It is a little out of date as this is from 2010 [1], but it shows there are some large differences in earnings by field. In some cases a bachelor's degree results in lower earnings than a high school graduate. [2] shows that depending on major about 30% of graduates go on for further study. That further study may be a lower credential (e.g., certificate or diploma) or a higher credential (e.g., masters or professional degree). [3] shows an analysis of differences in earnings by field, gender, and highest degree level; with the largest increases in earnings coming for those from business, social sciences, and arts. Unfortunately [2] and [3] do not seem to be looking at lifetime earnings.

For men, [1] shows the median lifetime earnings for high school graduates is $882,300. The median lifetime earnings for men with a bachelor's degree is 1,517,200. The lowest field is Fine and Applied Arts at $843,900, which is lower than the median lifetime earnings for those with a high school education, up to the highest median field of engineering with earnings of $1,845,000.

For women, [1] shows median high school lifetime earnings of $458,900, median bachelor's earnings for all fields of $972,500, and lowest median bachelor's earnings of $652,100 (Fine and Applied Arts), and a highest of $1,169,100 (Business Administration). The interesting thing to note is for women there is only 1 of 18 field degree combinations (earnings are provided for bachelor's and associate's) where the woman's lifetime earnings decreases relative to a high school education alone (Fine and Applied Arts associates median earnings are $437,300). For men, 4 of 18 field degree combinations will result in lower lifetime earnings relative to high school education alone.

There is further analysis in [1] of the earnings percentiles by each field showing that men with a business degree earn the most at the 90 percentile. This holds for women with a business degree.

I don't see if this has been restricted to those whose highest education is a bachelor's degree or not, but there is also work that has shown increases in earnings by field for graduate or professional degrees [3]. It's possible that those earnings premiums have been captured in the reporting of [1], but [3] seems to come to the conclusion that most business, arts, and social sciences fields gain a large increase in salary for graduate or professional degrees.

Hopefully those familiar with similar analysis from the US could help to provide that information.

[1] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2014040...

[2] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/150911/dq150...

[3] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-006-x/2018001/article...

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#612

Post by Kranar » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

thinkcontext wrote: post #598

10x-dev wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't match up with my experience as an interviewer at several FAANGs. HR typically wants their diversity numbers up badly so if you're gay, a woman, and/or black they are already incredibly inclined to hire you, as long as you pass the interviews. It's not a walk in the park, but you have this going for you and it's a big advantage imo.

Your experience does not match research on the job market generally. Multiple studies show increased responses to resumes with "whitened" names. This is, of course, at odds with the white victimhood narrative that unqualified minorities are taking jobs, when it is in fact the opposite which is occurring. https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes...

I just went over the actual study itself and it does not support your claim:

http://www-2.rotman.utoronto.ca/facbios/file/Whitening%20MS%...

It's a sort of interesting read but nothing too dramatic and whether it's evidence of racism is subject to interpretation. What isn't subject to interpretation is the claim that the study shows that "whitened" names increase callbacks. On the contrary whitening names has no effect on callbacks as indicated on page 31:

"Whitening the name only (versus not whitening at all) did not make a statistically significant difference for black applicants"

The actual study shows that removing racial indicators from experience is what results in a gap in callbacks. So someone who represents themselves as the leader of their campus' "Black Student Business Association" is less likely to get a call back than someone who represented themselves as the leader of their campus' "Student Business Association". They refer to the removal of racial indicators as whitening but I think that's prematurely jumping to conclusions. The name aspect is certainly a form of whitening, since black names are being changed to white names. But it's premature to refer to the removal of racial indicators and making the experience racially neutral as a form of whitening.

Other forms of experience that explicitly mention race result in less callbacks than when that same experience doesn't mention race. Whether this is racism or not can not be concluded strictly based off of the study's parameters. For example, if I were presented with one candidate who was in charge of the university's "Law Society" I would probably pick that person over someone who was in charge of that university's "Black Law Society", and I don't think I would be racist for doing so. I would consider being in charge of an organization that is open to all races or is independent of race as a more prestigious accomplishment than being in charge of an organization that is race specific.

To test whether I was racist in my decision making, I would need to pick someone who was not in charge of anything over someone who was in charge of the "Black Law Society", with all else being equal. The study did not do this comparison and unfortunately the study does not present the raw data so there's no way for me to do this analysis myself.

I could bicker about some of the methodological issues as well which are not exactly rigorous, as well as the fact that this study is not exactly pertinent to this conversation as they only looked at internships for jobs that are not technical in nature, with the bulk of them being sales and marketing, and customer service jobs, instead of engineering, computer science, law, or professional jobs.

Ultimately no study is going to be perfect but one should not read too much into many of these studies. They are not nearly as rigorous or definitive as one would expect and furthermore they don't tend to generalize.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#613

Post by klyrs » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

exporectomy wrote: post #306

happythen wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> foot through the door Yea, but we got no problem getting to that door. Minorities might get pulled over and get a knee on the neck. Women might get assaulted on their way. Being a white dude, I'll get a taxi there, no problem. So if I have to try harder to get the position, pretty understandable, since I got the head start. Not saying life is easy for anyone, saying it's so much easier being a white dude with a nic…

> a knee on the neck. Women might get assaulted You've been reading too much news. That doesn't happen to normal people in real life. Blacks have a huge disadvantage of poor upbringing by their own family and community and women have a huge "disadvantage" of not wanting to be a computer programmer.

Women have the disadvantage that if they reveal their gender online, they're barraged with sexual harassment and even death threats for nothing but being a woman. Do you suppose this treatment encourages curiosity in computing?

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#614

Post by wing-_-nuts » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

jjk166 wrote: post #514

zabzonk wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not really a thing. Sorry, it is. I've worked in higher education and I've seen it happen. What other explanation do you have for the sales of these ludicrous "textbooks"?

It's not like there is a cheap alternative that the professors can switch to. All new edition textbooks are expensive. They can't specify out of print editions because then you can't guarantee that your students can get access to them, and the textbook companies update the problems in the books just enough to make using a different edition from the one specified impractical. Some publishers may incentivize using thei…

I always found it funny that there were yearly rewrites to textbooks on subjects which hadn't really changed that much in hundreds of years. You telling me there isn't a good calculus textbook in the public domain yet? Really? This is a totally solvable problem, but the powers that be are getting by on grift.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#615

Post by wasmburger » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #596

“Young men get little help, in part, because schools are focused on encouraging historically underrepresented students. Jerlando Jackson, department chair, Education Leadership and Policy Analysis, at the University of Wisconsin’s School of Education, said few campuses have been willing to spend limited funds on male underachievement that would also benefit white men, risking criticism for assisting those who have hi…

I also wonder about those in Silicon Valley telling young men "don't go to college" and the mostly male fascination with entrepreneurship and crytocurrency. The entire meme stock and "apes together are strong" seems like a young male flex. Could it be that college is just seen as "gay"?

Are Academics Disproportionately Gay? A new analysis suggests that's the case, and that academic work -- at once solitary and social in nature -- makes it particularly attractive to those who are not straight.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/26/study-suggest...

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#616

Post by wing-_-nuts » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #592

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computer Science graduates have done well and will continue to do well, although figuring out a post-40s career strategy is a huge necessity. Other fields, other than the specialties? Many will continue to suffer, IMO.

Where does this post 40s mean come from? I mean, seriously... it makes no sense.

Ageism. Yes, there are 50 year old devs that are on the cutting edge of their field, and still doing well, but by 40 you're looked at with increased skepticism if you haven't made your way into management

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#617

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

CountDrewku wrote: post #452

phendrenad2 wrote: post #8

This is because in our society, it's more acceptable for men to drop out and get into some skilled trade, like plumbing or climbing telephone poles. People just won't accept that women can also do that. So there's a lot of pressure to make sure your female children go to college and get a degree.

>People just won't accept that women can also do that. Most women just don't want to do that. I don't think it has much to do with acceptance. Women that want to become plumbers are few an far between.

I suspect it also has something to do with the vast majority of women having weaker wrists/forearms than men.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#618

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #361

WalterBright wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandmother worked as a mechanic for the phone company in the nine-teens. Her sister did whatever she wanted, she started and ran her own business.

What are the “nine-teens”?

1910-1920

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#619

Post by ttmb » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

bmj wrote: post #234

baron816 wrote: post #63

A lot of this is driven by narratives—A narrative that college isn’t worth it anymore. A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more. I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. They need to feel like they’re part of society. Nothing good can come of an entire gener…

I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. This. We are seeing the results of what was reported in the book Boys Adrift . My older son just graduated high school. He has no interest in college at the moment, and has shown a gift for working with his hands. He is currently doing a carpentry apprenticeship with an acquaintance that runs a renovation and design company.…

> [0] His crew is run by Swedish woman who was trained as a metal worker

It is a small world and I am 98% sure that your son has been in my house recently.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#620

Post by sjg007 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #616

sjg007 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does this post 40s mean come from? I mean, seriously... it makes no sense.

Ageism. Yes, there are 50 year old devs that are on the cutting edge of their field, and still doing well, but by 40 you're looked at with increased skepticism if you haven't made your way into management

It seems like an irrational made up meme that risks becoming a self full filling prophecy. Much like the view that the only qualified interviews are Google interviews.