Live data from Hacker News

For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

blog.perrysun.com

611–620 of 623 posts

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#611
post #234

I think PWA is a good concept and interesting, but I don't really use them myself. I also noticed that very few people use PWA's - especially in cases where you have to pay for the apps, which makes me think that developers like them because they are cool, but because they make business sense.

There's little incentive to develop PWAs when 60% of your customers in the US can't use them.

Even many places in Europe, the iPhone users are so prevalent among those willing to pay for an app is more like 90%.

iPhone is like a Tesla. Most Android phones are like an old beat up Volkswagon from 1973. I love the fact that both exist.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#612
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are gunning for monopoly. No shame in that. It is pretty shameful if you’re simultaneously claiming to be the biggest defender of the open web. > Why put in the effort It’s pretty clear why at this point: developers hate them and antitrust regulators are looking for the right opportunity to go for the throat. Apple screwed up when they killed Safari on Windows, they could have had a solid shot at being the #2…

All capitalists really want to be monopolists. There is some shame in that yes. But the real shame is for the system, the laws, that allow that to happen. Shaming Google or Apple does not do much. Legislating against monopolies like AppStore would be the solution.

> Legislating against monopolies like AppStore would be the solution

I'm sure Microsoft (Xbox game store), Sony (PSN store) and Nintendo (eShop) will be on board with banning proprietary app store monopolies owned by the hardware vendor.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#613
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Security, privacy, and battery life sell phones. Because that's what people want.

No they want Security, privacy, and battery life. Yes, I know there's no difference to the quote (copy&paste). The difference is that what Apple says is security and privacy is often fluff and done for PR and isn't actually what people want when the say they want security and privacy. Look no further than what Apple call end-to-end encryption in iMessage. It is on par with VW saying their diesel engines had such and…

> The difference is that what Apple says is security and privacy is often fluff

In the context of Apple's Safari engineering priorities, which is the context of this discussion, Apple has delivered real security, privacy and battery life wins. This isn't even disputed by Apple's detractors.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that any different to using the fully modern web app equivalent of this shitty spying marketing-loaded app?

Are you asking how going to a URL is different from installing an app?

With all the features being added to the Chrome Platform recently, given the trajectory Google is heading along with web applications, absolutely yes.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#615

A bigger issue which this site forgets to mention is the 7 day cap for local storage data after which the data is deleted unless the site haas been added to the Home Screen shortcut (the option for which has also been hidden in menus now without any API to present this easily): > Apple in its Full Third-Party Cookie Blocking and More blog post announced changes to WebKit that erases all local storage data for a given…

Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvotes. It takes threads off topic in a particularly tedious way.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#616
post #154

A bigger issue which this site forgets to mention is the 7 day cap for local storage data after which the data is deleted unless the site haas been added to the Home Screen shortcut (the option for which has also been hidden in menus now without any API to present this easily): > Apple in its Full Third-Party Cookie Blocking and More blog post announced changes to WebKit that erases all local storage data for a given…

> What's up with the downvotes? This whole thread seems to be full of Apple fans, you shouldn't point to any logically correct criticisms of Apple

Please don't break the site guidelines like this.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#617
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of these complaints are about technologies that Chrome implements The article mentions explicitely: WebRTC, VP9, WebP, notifications, home screen icon shortcut, Local data storage, camera, microphone, USB port, and some more. The only one in there that is not supported by w3c, as far as I know, is USB. All others are proper W3 standards yet unsupported by Apple WebKit/Safari. Many of these complaints are about…

Notice how these are all Google technologies? That doesn't contradict your point per se, but it basically feels to me like Google is dictating the standards right now. So I'm not sure Apple needs to play along.

How is push notifications, local storage, camera, location, microphone and USB "Google tech"?

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I be excited about Filesystem API and the like when we can already do that on the operating system directly? Because it's easier to update to a website than it is to release a ton of binaries ({windows, Linux, macos}x{x86,x64,arm64}) and have users download them. Not to mention it's safer and faster for the user.

> safer and faster Safer, maybe. Faster? LMAO.

If you take into account the download/extraction/installation time of the user, many times yes.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That means I need two versions of each image: something legacy or proprietary for Safari users (PNG, JPEG, HEIF) and something to appease the Google Gods (WebP) so I don't get blasted by Core Web Vitals. WebP uses VP8, which requires hardware support to run correctly. Apple's "proprietary" format is also open, and created by a standards body instead of Google. VP8 also has some patent claims on it by Nokia, even th…

> Apple’s “proprietary” format is also open No, it isn’t. It’s useless without HEVC, which is encumbered and requires royalties,[0] most of which go to Apple. VP8 is free (as in “free beer,” not as in “freedom”). > What if iOS users view this as a feature? They can view it however they like. I’m typing this on iOS and find it disappointing. > Again, Apple’s formats are open. HEVC is not open.[0] > My experience is a…

> No, it isn’t. It’s useless without HEVC, which is encumbered and requires royalties,[0] most of which go to Apple. VP8 is free (as in “free beer,” not as in “freedom”).

HEVC is H265 which is not as widespread. But either way, one benefit to Google I guess is you can avoid the $2.60 device fee. But also scroll down and see how many companies were involved in HEVC vs VP8/9.

> HEVC is not open.[0]

Source code is readily available, codec formats are as well, all that's keeping it from being open is a licensing fee.

> Chrome has its own issues, though, as does Firefox. Safari just seems to have more than the other two. For example, for the longest time, Safari was the only browser to support color() and DCI-P3.

Again, not my experience. I have only had to perform CSS hacks on chrome because chrome adds some CSS features ala IE.

> If you want to cater to an audience that prefers a clean, efficient UI while simultaneously avoiding creating a horrible mess of dark patterns, yes. If you want to run on as many browsers as possible without looking like a Word document, yes. If you want to appease Google so you don’t get deranked, yes.

So using safari I am part of the audience that doesn't want a clean UI? That's the entire reason I use a Mac and Safari. So the question stands. What does CSS have to do with SEO?

How do companies create cross browser experiences these days without making sites look like "word docs"? Apple themselves seem to have quite a design and css heavy site.

Since Safari is such an issue for you, why not just block the sites? Likely because you'll lose market share. So instead you try to demand your customers switch to something you prefer they use to make it easier for you to make money off of them. When will you Google shills leave the rest of us alone? Also how much are they paying you to promote Chrome these days?

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#620
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of these complaints are about technologies that Chrome implements The article mentions explicitely: WebRTC, VP9, WebP, notifications, home screen icon shortcut, Local data storage, camera, microphone, USB port, and some more. The only one in there that is not supported by w3c, as far as I know, is USB. All others are proper W3 standards yet unsupported by Apple WebKit/Safari. Many of these complaints are about…

Notice how these are all Google technologies? That doesn't contradict your point per se, but it basically feels to me like Google is dictating the standards right now. So I'm not sure Apple needs to play along.

It seems like the bigger issue is that Apple isn't playing a bigger part in developing web standards. If Apple doesn't like certain features, they should fight to keep them from being standardized, instead of just refusing to implement them on their own browsers. Where else are web developers supposed to look towards when trying to figure out what's standard and what's not?
Post reply on HN