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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#611

Post by Nursie »

tekknik wrote: post #592
Nursie wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Deplatforming seems to work if it's goal is to simply limit free speech You're still perfectly free to spew your crazy, you just don't get to stand on my lawn to do so. Good, old-fashioned conservative value that. You have never had a right to use someone else's infrastructure like this, and hopefully never will, as that is a scary precedent that doesn't respect the rights of creators and owners of such platforms.

So by mentioning conservative value you assume I’m on the right? I don’t agree that someone should be able to give some people a megaphone, but not others.

If it’s my megaphone I’ll do what I like with it, particularly if what you want to do with it is likely to incite violence or spread (for example) dangerous health misinformation during a pandemic.

You seem to be repeating the current right wing grievances. If you’re not on the right then... ok.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#612

Post by nsonha »

kaba0 wrote: post #607
User23 wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is still an awful lot we don't know about cellular biology, so I'm always a bit baffled when people that should know better say that this or that is (virtually) impossible. Fortunately, we're running the largest phase 4 clinical trial in human history, so in 25 years or so we'll have some absolutely great longitudinal data.

mRNA is continuously produced by every living cell in your body. How come then that you don’t get ridiculously many duplicated copies of the created mRNAs, something that only happens at an evolutionary timescale? You have multiple orders of magnitudes more naturally created mRNA, why isn’t there a concern for that?

how do you know what is produced and called "just mRNA" is the exact same kind of thing that is the mRNA in your body? You can test to verify that it has all the characteristics of mRNA. However, you obviously can't 100% confirm that it does not have characteristics that is not in "natural" mRNA, since the list of characteristics mRNA does NOT have is infinite.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#613

Post by kaba0 »

nsonha wrote: post #612
kaba0 wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mRNA is continuously produced by every living cell in your body. How come then that you don’t get ridiculously many duplicated copies of the created mRNAs, something that only happens at an evolutionary timescale? You have multiple orders of magnitudes more naturally created mRNA, why isn’t there a concern for that?

how do you know what is produced and called "just mRNA" is the exact same kind of thing that is the mRNA in your body? You can test to verify that it has all the characteristics of mRNA. However, you obviously can't 100% confirm that it does not have characteristics that is not in "natural" mRNA, since the list of characteristics mRNA does NOT have is infinite.

What do you mean produced? As in the pharmaceutical factory? You can quite literally have a look at it with an electron microscope, and there are trillion other ways to chemically verify that. Also, we can reprogram bacteria to manufacture any protein for us - molecular biology is very advanced. Why do you feel the need to question very basic “problems” that were more than certainly thought about and solved by the many experts working on it for decades? You can question whether the engineers of a car engine though of heat dissipation but you would find it sort of dumb, wouldn’t you?

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#614

Post by nsonha »

kaba0 wrote: post #613
nsonha wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how do you know what is produced and called "just mRNA" is the exact same kind of thing that is the mRNA in your body? You can test to verify that it has all the characteristics of mRNA. However, you obviously can't 100% confirm that it does not have characteristics that is not in "natural" mRNA, since the list of characteristics mRNA does NOT have is infinite.

What do you mean produced? As in the pharmaceutical factory? You can quite literally have a look at it with an electron microscope, and there are trillion other ways to chemically verify that. Also, we can reprogram bacteria to manufacture any protein for us - molecular biology is very advanced. Why do you feel the need to question very basic “problems” that were more than certainly thought about and solved by the ma…

> trillion other ways to chemically verify that

Trillion? Did you not read what I said about being able to verify the behaviors you want and not the side effects you don't yet know exist? Are you telling me that electronic microscopes are used in such a way that people actually look into individual massive molecules and... what count the atoms?

This is questioning a new technique that's not tested for more than a year for the purpose of being a vaccine. You can tell me that this is in theory safer than traditional vaccines all you want, but by my dumb logic, theory is just that. Traditional vaccine was tested for multiple generations of humans, this was not. I am not advocating traditional vaccine or anything just maybe, maybe, don't feel so sure about things in a field that has so much we don't know yet. mRNA is code created from convoluted processes not exactly like programming code that human specifically write with limited known behaviors.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#615

Post by kaba0 »

nsonha wrote: post #614
kaba0 wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean produced? As in the pharmaceutical factory? You can quite literally have a look at it with an electron microscope, and there are trillion other ways to chemically verify that. Also, we can reprogram bacteria to manufacture any protein for us - molecular biology is very advanced. Why do you feel the need to question very basic “problems” that were more than certainly thought about and solved by the ma…

> trillion other ways to chemically verify that Trillion? Did you not read what I said about being able to verify the behaviors you want and not the side effects you don't yet know exist? Are you telling me that electronic microscopes are used in such a way that people actually look into individual massive molecules and... what count the atoms? This is questioning a new technique that's not tested for more than a yea…

So you don’t believe that we can manufacture nucleotide-perfect sequences of RNAs? Than I have to break it for you, we absolutely can, to the point where you can simply order a specific sequence online without much trouble.

I just don’t understand why would you trust a car engine all that much more vs medicine. Do not blindly trust anything, but questioning uncontroversially held beliefs by a whole field is just cocky.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#616

Post by tekknik »

Nursie wrote: post #611
tekknik wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So by mentioning conservative value you assume I’m on the right? I don’t agree that someone should be able to give some people a megaphone, but not others.

If it’s my megaphone I’ll do what I like with it, particularly if what you want to do with it is likely to incite violence or spread (for example) dangerous health misinformation during a pandemic. You seem to be repeating the current right wing grievances. If you’re not on the right then... ok.

> If it’s my megaphone I’ll do what I like with it, particularly if what you want to do with it is likely to incite violence or spread (for example) dangerous health misinformation during a pandemic.

Got it, so if we don’t agree with how something is used we shut it down. Republicans attempted this before with bakeries, so I guess this means it’s ok now?

And the inciting violence thing, you realize that’s a left belief yes?

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#619

Post by randomNumber7 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #472
aantix wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Linus starts out with "Please keep your insane" - the reader/original poster will enter a defensive mode. Imagine that internal monologue - "Am I insane? I'm smart? I'm an analytic person. Why is he calling me insane? HE'S the insane one!" Because Linus thinks this is a logical fight. But it's not. Information is _not_ all that's needed to be persuaded. And if he really care about the vax effort, his efforts wou…

> When Linus starts out with "Please keep your insane" - the reader/original poster will enter a defensive mode You're assuming the goal is convincing the original poster. Given that goal, you are correct. The counterargument: OP doesn't matter. Their effect on third parties is key. Reasonably engaging with OP validates their thinking. (Which, to reiterate, is nonsense.) Yes– calm, patient rhetoric has a higher chanc…

> We're...well, we're bastards. To us, OP is beyond saving. What matters is the people around her.

Upvoting wasn't enough. Linus reaction is perfect. Even if it was just driven by emotions I completely understand it.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#620

Post by nsonha »

kaba0 wrote: post #615
nsonha wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> trillion other ways to chemically verify that Trillion? Did you not read what I said about being able to verify the behaviors you want and not the side effects you don't yet know exist? Are you telling me that electronic microscopes are used in such a way that people actually look into individual massive molecules and... what count the atoms? This is questioning a new technique that's not tested for more than a yea…

So you don’t believe that we can manufacture nucleotide-perfect sequences of RNAs? Than I have to break it for you, we absolutely can, to the point where you can simply order a specific sequence online without much trouble. I just don’t understand why would you trust a car engine all that much more vs medicine. Do not blindly trust anything, but questioning uncontroversially held beliefs by a whole field is just cock…

Mechanic is quite simplistic comparing to life science to me. Every single component of the car was built by a spec made by human. We dont borrow components of nature that oporate at a scale we're not fully able to inspect, to produce code we dont fully understand, then claim that the code does exactly what we want and nothing else.

Aside from that, cars were also tested for more than 1 year you know?

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