Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#611

Post by Ericson2314 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:29 AM UTC

lostcolony wrote: post #599

Ericson2314 wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why this getting down-voted. There are issues, like to what extent having teenagers work is useful or harmful to society in the first place, but a universal things everyone enters and leaves isn't a class in the segregated and hereditary sense.

Religion is a legally protected class; everyone is free to change their religion. Pregnancy is also a legally protected class, despite being one that half the population can enter and leave. Also, short term disabilities. I don't find this argument compelling, unless you're also arguing that employers should be able to pay people less for their religion or because they get pregnant (or choose not to get pregnant) or…

That's a different use of class, but an important one too. We want people's choices around families and religion to be free from outside coercion, so we have special protections. Short term disabilities are not a choice but also non-universal, and without the protection they might worsen into long-term ones.

But being a teenager is a not a choice, and not something that happens to some people but not others. Again, there's many reasons we don't want to promote shit jobs for adolescents because of some nonsense about character building, but I think that's a rational distinct from the others.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#612

Post by ianai » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:31 AM UTC

blihp wrote: post #548

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

A 10% margin also often doesn't tell the whole story of how they make their money. Nearly since its inception, a substantial portion of McDonald's long term profit came from the appreciation of the real estate the stores were built on. Operating a business on it just made it cash flow positive during the holding period. So it was essentially a REIT that happened to operate a fast food chain. Even for many mom-and-pop…

Not to forget the times where states raise their minimum wage and see the number of people in the labor force increase. The balance of power is almost always squarely weighted on the side of the employer. This can push wages below market optimum.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#613

Post by jonnycomputer » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:31 AM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #259

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, no education, no experience jobs are the norm. Does that restaurant pay incoming career food service staff a wage sufficient to raise a family on? A solid third of the households in the US take in under 50k/yr. More than half that are under 25k. I don't know about you, but 37k doesn't go far. Assuming 30% effective tax rate that's 2158/mo. 1 bed flat in my city $1400 Cell phone bill: $100 Home internet: $100 E…

30% is way to high an effective tax rate at that income. Below median earners pay effectively zero taxes with the EITC and standard deductible. $400 is way too high for a car payment. You can get a great used compact for $10k. With decent credit that’ll run you $150/month. $100 is way too high for home Internet. I pay $40/month for 100 mbps, which is more than enough for five decides to stream simultaneously. $1400 i…

Federal income tax, state income tax and local property and sales tax. Social Security and Medicare taxes. I agree 30% is too high an estimate for below median incomes, but its closer 9-15%, according to this: https://thecollegeinvestor.com/34072/effective-tax-rates/

And if you include health insurance--which in other countries is provided for and paid for with taxes--then it goes up. A lot.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#614

Post by scaramanga » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #425

rbg246 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think needing to survive forces or keeping your human dignity forces you to find a job? That's the way I see it.

That job might not exist at all if the government mandates your wage to be higher than the value of your labor.

The government has much better options than mandating a living wage.

It can simply pay you the wage as an indirect subsidy to stimulate production.

It can employ you in the construction of infrastructure. The infrastructure of the US is dilapidated to the point of national disgrace.

It should still mandate living wages, the same way it should not allow employers to lash their employees or own them as chattel, or any number of other practices which are both immoral, and cannot find any temporary justification due to exigent circumstances (eg. literal struggle for national survival...)

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#615

Post by stirlo » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:34 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #529

scrozart wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds exactly like what OP indicated.

A fast food job isn't an apprenticeship. It's just a shitty job. Management of a fast food restaurant takes a bit of generalizable, transferable skill, but there are always going to be an order of magnitude more workers than managers. A job where only 10% of the workers can move up is a dead end job for 90% of them. Every apprentice carpenter can become a carpenter.

I disagree. While learning to operate a grill or deep fryer isn't a skill many are likely to need in the future there are dozens of generalist skills learned from your first job. Think teamwork, following managerial directions, following a roster, how to complete timesheets, how to deal with workplace conflict, how to deal with suppliers and customers, how to dress appropriatly, even how to count money/operate a register. Fast food jobs are a great place to make mistakes as a teen as the consequences are minimal and you can get another job easily. If you've never worked in any workplace you'll find it far harder to get hired.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#616

Post by the_only_law » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

david_allison wrote: post #48

the_only_law wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ngl it’s got me wondering if I should make some life shattering changes myself.

Unsolicited advice: dip your toe in the water and introspect after a couple of months to see if it's a sustainable change that you want to make.

The issue is I’m not sure if it’s something I can just dip my toe in to try. The more research I do that more apparent that the things I want to do will require an all or nothing investment.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#617

Post by kristjansson » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:36 AM UTC

woopwoop wrote: post #297

kristjansson wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your replies down thread indicate an extremely narrow interpretation of 'expenses' here, namely only those financial costs directly related to employment. Taking that interpretation, you're probably correct that nearly all jobs offer net-positive pay counting only the those inputs from the employee. You're right that someone with better off in immediate financial terms with basically any job than no job. However, tha…

I think his (gruez's) interpretation is the obviously reasonable one, and I'm not sure why he's getting bashed so severely here. Note that op made the claim that "net pay" was literally negative, which seems to comport totally with the interpretation given, and not at all with an interpretation of "sustainability" referring to a living wage.

I think quoting the unsustainable part of OP instead of the net pay part led to lots of misinterpretation. Sustainability in a pay context is IMO strongly linked to a living wage, or at least a survivable wage.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#618

Post by deburo » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

blihp wrote: post #548

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

A 10% margin also often doesn't tell the whole story of how they make their money. Nearly since its inception, a substantial portion of McDonald's long term profit came from the appreciation of the real estate the stores were built on. Operating a business on it just made it cash flow positive during the holding period. So it was essentially a REIT that happened to operate a fast food chain. Even for many mom-and-pop…

>If they honestly can't afford to pay a living wage

It's not logical to kill businesses by arbitrarily raising the minimum wage. Do you think the people they employ are better off not working at all? These people may not have a decent enough salary, but they get to work as opposed to staying at home and degenerate (mentally and physically). I always thought the better solution is to help them financially in other ways (greater tax credits, negative taxes?).

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#619

Post by chii » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:41 AM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #532

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

Think of the business side of the problem as a collective action problem. You want to pay your workers a living wage, but to do so, you have to raise your prices. If you raise your prices, your business will go to your competitor, so you can't exist if you increase your wages (and your competitor doesn't). Meanwhile your competitor wants to increase wages but doesn't for the same reason. If the government mandated th…

> If you raise your prices ... and your competitor doesn't

this means your business is less efficient than your competitor's, or you are asking for a higher margin than your competitor. Both means that the business deservedly fail under the raised minimum wage.

if everybody has to raise their prices to fund the higher minimum wage, then it means the original minimun wage was already at the optimal level for your business!

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#620

Post by shkkmo » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

nimos wrote: post #511

I've never liked the idea we should expect businesses to provide a living wage. If we, as a society, think there is some sort of minimum standard for living. (We should) Then we, as a society, should pay for it. Increasing minimum wage seems like a roundabout unfair way of doing that via selective inflation. Which as far as I can tell would be largely a wealth transfer from the middle class to the lower class. Who sp…

>I think the government should guarantee some minimum wage and top people who don't earn that.

That would be horrible. The bottom of wages would drop to zero (since offering above zero but below the government guatantee would provide no benefit in highering.) This would drag down other low wages since the jump from paying zero to paying just over minmum would be a huge cost increase for a minor highering benefit.

UBI is really the only functional alternative to a minimum wage.