Female Founder Secrets: Fertility • Hacker News Board

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#611

Post by Auracle » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:18 AM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #435

astan wrote: post #67

Your whole blog resonates deeply with me. All this corporate grifting and women's empowerment months will do jack shit until we figure out how to make workplaces and lives more equitable for mothers and allowing for gaps, breaks and destigmatizing time off for parents of both genders. Instead, we talk about how sexism is the biggest problem. Sure, sexism might be annoying, but in the west, it is hardly something that…

Thanks. This is something dudes can't write about. My wife & I simply decided decades ago that one of us would always not work. We lived cheaply so we could accomplish that goal, but we wanted a good family life. I would have been happy to be a househusband because she's about 50 times the programmer I am, but she doesn't love business and I do. We ended up doing great, but we had to start out assuming that a 2-caree…

I’ve found that people take great offense to the notion that fertility is majorly affected by your 30s. I think people just don’t like to acknowledge their age, and it’s probably worse for those that are in their 30s and still not married.

Honestly, it should be a thing for guys to freeze sperm when we’re young due to the ease of it. Unfortunately for women it’s not so easy.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#612

Post by lettergram » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #571

astan wrote: post #67

Your whole blog resonates deeply with me. All this corporate grifting and women's empowerment months will do jack shit until we figure out how to make workplaces and lives more equitable for mothers and allowing for gaps, breaks and destigmatizing time off for parents of both genders. Instead, we talk about how sexism is the biggest problem. Sure, sexism might be annoying, but in the west, it is hardly something that…

Here's an unpopular thought: raising kids, motivating them to learn, helping them mature, teaching them your values, helping them get out of bad influence, is a full-time job. It requires education to explain the right things and show good examples. It requires soft skills to be patient and persuasive. It requires people skills to counter out bad influencers. It requires time, dedication and patience. It's not the sa…

I think most of the people HN haven’t spent much time with people out of the “bubble”.

“Trigger warning”

This is my experience from my wife, our friends, and my community & family. But it might provide some insight.

90% of women I speak to would love not to work and would like to raise kids (most men too). It’s more about the wage gap. Most of the people I speak with believe (and I agree) believe the lack of wage growth (since 1970-ish) was created by offshoring jobs and illegal immigration that drive down wages to the point both members of the household have to work. Further exasperating the issue is the prison times and the push for “independence”, which leaves many single women.

Everyone my wife and I grew up with had both (or one) parent working - none seemed happy. The happiest and smartest people I know have / are stay at home moms.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#613

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:22 AM UTC

ncallaway wrote: post #598

sokoloff wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can I afford those things if I am not getting paid? From savings or by having another family member work? Combinations of that worked for a very long time in human history.

Sure, but that's just shifting who is getting paid or when. The person I was responding to said that people were obsessed with getting paid versus the social obligations. I was explaining why people who would want to stay at home might be obsessed about payment. It's a question that must be answered. You provide some potential answers, but for the vast majority of young Americans these days having enough savings to r…

If you’re in the latter situation, find work that can done entirely compatibly with raising your family. Open a family daycare for other nearby 2-income households to use. It helps them and helps you. If that violates the premise of “without being paid”, so be it; I’m trying to be pragmatic not pedantic.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#614

Post by arvinsim » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:22 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #536

hycaria wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am female too and I really don’t relate to this kind of discourse. If you’re really that into high pressure job and grinding the ladder why would you be so attracted to raising a family as a sahm ? You can’t do everything at once. No one is stopping you from raising children but yourself. Many don’t go for the business route and that’s a respectable choice but of course you can’t have it all. If in the end your fer…

> If you’re really that into high pressure job and grinding the ladder why would you be so attracted to raising a family as a sahm ? You can’t do everything at once. No one is stopping you from raising children but yourself. Many don’t go for the business route and that’s a respectable choice but of course you can’t have it all. If in the end your fertility is more important than your career then have kids without ma…

I agree. Any culture that promotes less children, deliberate or otherwise, would eventually be replaced by a culture that does promote more children.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#615

Post by vecplane » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

depressedpanda wrote: post #456

vecplane wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an obvious false equivalence. While technically 'unnatural' refrigeration is not 'invasive and risky.' The vast majority of pre-modern humans were likely starving or malnourished, and those problems are mostly solved in the modern era, thanks in part to refrigeration. We don't really have good solutions for women trying to have children into their 40s, though I fully support the advancement of fertility techno…

> The vast majority of pre-modern humans were likely starving or malnourished, and those problems are mostly solved in the modern era, thanks in part to refrigeration. What makes you think that? I find it more likely that early hominids fared about as well as contemporary chimpanzees. Some starving, some being malnourished, but definitely not a vast majority.

If you look at the average height differences from pre-modern humans to today, I think it's fair to say that the majority of them were malnourished.

EDIT: And when I say 'pre-modern' humans I mean 'pre-modern era' as in before the industrial revolution and refrigeration, not before genetically/physiologically modern humans. It sounds like you understand me as saying ~200k years ago, rather than the ~200 years ago I intended.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#616

Post by arvinsim » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:25 AM UTC

blackguardx wrote: post #575

rayiner wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I disagree, I think in the countries and social spheres where this is an _actual_ choice for women, it is very much a "life choice" (because the rest of the world makes more than enough children to resolve the issues of "sustainable human society"). When we'll get to a point where world wide population growth drops below 2.1 factor, maybe then we can start reconsidering this policy. That's not really a rebuttal to…

There has been various research about Earth's carrying capacity. The numbers are controversial but it shouldn't be controversial that there is _some_ limit. I think we are going to have to adapt to a post-growth world. Or maybe things will grow in other ways. I am not worried about declining birth rates. It's not like we are heading for a "Children of Men" scenario. The population will stabilize before it goes to zer…

It's not about population, it's about culture.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#617

Post by xenihn » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:26 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #262

xenihn wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear what you're asking for exactly, but the solution is obvious: give whatever it is that you want to provide to EVERYONE, regardless of their gender, and whether or not they actually have children. Special treatment for everyone.

This is a nice sentiment, but doing so would have unintended consequences. For example, in most top universities, they give roughly the same leave to new fathers as new mothers. New mothers use this time to care for their baby, but many new fathers use this time as an extended sabbatical/research leave. Their wives take care of the baby for the most part, and they work on their next book. Then when it comes time for…

Most major decisions have unintended consequences. I don't see that as a legitimate opposing point, especially without alternatives. Please keep in mind that this isn't just about men vs. women. There are plenty of women who don't want to have children, and who aren't pressured into that decision by the need to focus on a career. They deserve the same treatment that women who choose to have children receive too.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#618

Post by lhorie » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:27 AM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #571

astan wrote: post #67

Your whole blog resonates deeply with me. All this corporate grifting and women's empowerment months will do jack shit until we figure out how to make workplaces and lives more equitable for mothers and allowing for gaps, breaks and destigmatizing time off for parents of both genders. Instead, we talk about how sexism is the biggest problem. Sure, sexism might be annoying, but in the west, it is hardly something that…

Here's an unpopular thought: raising kids, motivating them to learn, helping them mature, teaching them your values, helping them get out of bad influence, is a full-time job. It requires education to explain the right things and show good examples. It requires soft skills to be patient and persuasive. It requires people skills to counter out bad influencers. It requires time, dedication and patience. It's not the sa…

> raising kids [...] is a full-time job

Here's a contrary (and possibly even more unpopular) thought: some say spending inordinate amounts of time on child rearing is "doing it wrong". Some groups (orthodox jewish, for example) will argue that many parents helicopter too much to compensate for a lack of educational focus due to not having a well-established ethics framework to guide them.

Part of that narrative is obviously to promote certain religious frameworks, but it has a grain of truth: religious communities will generally agree among themselves on what's "right" and "wrong", and collectively impart that as part of social life, through religious stories and metaphors, etc painting the "ruleset" in broad brushstrokes, and then relying on things like natural consequences for granular learning, such that one specific individual does not need to micromanage every single aspect of their children's behaviors.

Older european descent folks might find an interesting correlation between being able to stay out as kids and family religious history. Obviously, it doesn't need to be based on religion. Japan is an interesting example where it's fairly common for both parents to work while relying on a strong collaborative social fabric nurtured from early school years.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#619

Post by lgleason » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:57 AM UTC

AussieWog93 wrote: post #554

krrrh wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts of what she wrote are similar to parts of what James Damore wrote, and he was fired for it.

James Damore went a bit further than the author did. He also didn't take care to avoid offense and misunderstanding when talking about certain topics. For example, he mentioned that women, on average, have more neuroticism. He's technically correct in terms of the psychological definition of the word (women will, on average, experience higher levels of anxiety than men when exposed to the same level of negative stimu…

My wife was friends with Damore during the time of the memo, publicly stated she supported his views and was torn to shreds for it so you are correct.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Fertility

#620

Post by kaitai » Fri, Mar 05, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #604

krrrh wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts of what she wrote are similar to parts of what James Damore wrote, and he was fired for it.

What I never understood was if there are less female software devs simply because they genuinely value others things more in life than staring at pixels on a computer screen (e.g. raising a family) and if this is the case in other time intensive fields such as medicine and law? Biological clock and childrearing are well understood from an evolutionary perspective and are things that affect men disproportionately less…

Honestly, I think most of these things are essentially tribal. A great source of data to support this idea is the 2015 table of physicians by gender and subspecialty [1]. Why are neurologists 28% female while neurological surgeons are only 7.8% female? Why are women 5% of orthopedic surgeons by 11.3% of vascular surgeons? You can come up with all sorts of just so stories (oh it's the hours, it's the blood) but then oops women make up 26.6% of emergency medicine specialists, so guess it's not hours or gore... What I see in math is that people flock to people to either are like them, or are nice to them, or to people who'll hire them. If you're deciding on your surgery specialty and the vascular surgeons will talk with you and the orthopedic surgeons snub you, you'll probably go for vascular surgery. It's certainly what happened in math grad school; if the numerical analysts were mean to women and the combinatorists were cool and said grad students only had to pay $5 for seminar dinners and weren't mean, magically combinatorics had more women (and more men, too, because this also applies to dudes!). If you get your first software dev job out of college and all the guys sort of avoid you and won't talk to you and wonder why you're there instead of raising your non-existent family, maybe... you'll end up somewhere else. Life is short.

Women make up the majority of house cleaners. It's not because women are so in love with cleaning, it's because it's a flexible job you can get into through another (often female) contact that will sometimes let you bring your five-year-old kid along so you don't need childcare. Longhaul trucking won't, in general, let you bring your five-year-old kid along so you don't need childcare (you really can't stop for potty often enough), and many blue collar jobs men hold are also gotten by family and neighborhood contacts.

[1] https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data...