Can we unleash the EU anti-trust regulators on them for monopoly abuse?
WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#612Earlier quoted context omitted.
Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification. It is one BGP attack or compromised CDN admin way from compromising the masses. This is one of the few points I agree with moxie on. The only safe way to install software on an Android device requires you bootstrap trust via a system supplied package manager that enforces si…
Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification That's nice, but why should Moxie decide whether the Google Play Store is a trusted source for me?
Right. They offer one option with signature verification and low privacy (Play store), and one option with higher privacy but low security (YOLO apk).
If neither of these work for you, you are not wanted on the Signal network.
Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#613Earlier quoted context omitted.
> forks ... may not use the official Signal network Is it technically prevented or just frowned upon? The former would be strange, because fixing a bug in your own private fork would also exclude you from the network.
I actually do not find this unreasonable, maintaining and providing backwards support everyone's custom version with their own quirks would be a big technical burden.
Then no support should be provided for these forks. Caveat emptor unless you use the official client.
Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#614Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).
Another key difference would be the business model. Signal being a non-profit[0] does not provide any guarantees for the app to not become 'hostile' in the future, but any such development motivated by personal profits would at least require a change of organization type, which I assume wouldn't go unnoticed. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Foundation
It was well noticed when WhatsApp changed hands to Facebook, and yet the vast majority of users didn't move to anything else because of network effects.
Once users are in an ecosystem it takes years to convince them to change and only after they hit a high discomfort tipping point.
If Signal ran short on funding and got bought by Google or Facebook all the tracking would kick in and most users would stay.
We must stop herding people into walled gardens. It is unethical and always backfires.
Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#615Wasn't not doing that a precondition that the EU imposed on the Whatsapp acquisition by Facebook?
Was that time-limited, is it not running afoul of that, or does Facebook just risk it?
Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#616Earlier quoted context omitted.
Depending on your exact needs either Telegram or (preferably IMO) Matrix might be a solution. (Yes, I think this is correct: For anyone who are currently on WhatsApp or anything Facebook for that matter even Telegram is a huge improvement in most ways.)
I get your point, but moving people to Signal has been an accomplishment on its own, you get to say "we should move to this new private app" only so many times, before your friends and family grab their torches.
If you want people to be privacy minded this is what you have to prepare them for, though. Signal could get bought out by a privacy-hostile company next year, or they could go out of business.
Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#617Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. I'll bite. Who's paying for my johnchristopher@whatever.tld and for the data (avatar pictures, transfered files, chat logs) associated with it ? Will the Matrix foundation let me use their services forever and f…
You can think of it like email. Maybe you started on AOL and later realized AOL is terrible. You could export your address book and move to a client/server you trust more and notify all your contacts from the new location. This is the same story on Matrix and what I mean when I say it is a freedom respecting decentralized service. You are also free to run your own DNS to a dedicated EMS instance then later point to y…
Following the e-mail analogy: Inevitably, there will be contacts of yours who didn't get or read your notification, or contacts of yours who aren't in your contacts list.
Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#618Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems to be possible unless you live in Germany, just follow this guide [0]. If in a EU country, I wonder if you could also submit a data subject access request (I'm not too familiar on GDPR). [0] https://faq.whatsapp.com/android/chats/how-to-save-your-chat...
Why wouldn't it be possible if you live in Germany?
I don't know.
I live in Germany and the files are also stored in /sdcard/WhatsApp/
And also the message databases are under there, ready to be copied and decrypted.
You can also access the unencrypted messagestore database, if you have root access. For me, it is located at : /data/data/com.whatsapp/databases/msgstore.db
Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#619Can someone help and dumb this down a little bit for me so that I can then explain to some of my friends who couldn't care too much about this change in policy? For example: What should be my response to questions like: . "What kind of data can now be shared with FB versus what was shared earlier (if any)?" . "Whatsapp chats are end to end encrypted so how can my data be shared with FB?" . "As an individual, how diff…
The article says Whatsapp will now share: * User phone numbers * Other people’s phone numbers stored in address books * Profile names * Profile pictures and * Status message including when a user was last online * Diagnostic data collected from app logs and already was getting: Purchases Financial information Location Contacts User content Identifiers Usage data and Diagnostics
Doesn't this mean that anybody agreeing to those terms needs to ask permission from each and everybody in their address book?
And if they don't, can I sue them (at least in the EU) or ask my contact to be removed before the agree to the terms?
Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app
#620Earlier quoted context omitted.
> forks ... may not use the official Signal network Is it technically prevented or just frowned upon? The former would be strange, because fixing a bug in your own private fork would also exclude you from the network.
I actually do not find this unreasonable, maintaining and providing backwards support everyone's custom version with their own quirks would be a big technical burden.
Moxie openly admits he centralized because it is easier and that decentralizing is too hard. We should all just give up and pick the least bad centralized service.
With that thinking we would all be using AOL.
Making a robust flexible protocol that can support a bunch of different client and service implementations is hard, but that is how we ended up avoiding email and web browsing being controlled by a single entity.
Matrix is solving the hard problem of providing the core functionality of tools like Slack and Whatsapp without sacrificing user freedom or asking you to trust any one entity.
This is what ethical engineering looks like, and I don't mind tolerating occasional growing pains in exchange for freedom.