Billionaires Build • Hacker News Board

Re: Billionaires Build

#611

Post by eyelidlessness » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #589

eyelidlessness wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this (me) critic of billionaires (the possibility of being one, not the humans who are), it’s not ideological. It’s based on an analysis of leverage (like GP’s comment), where the levers are necessarily some mix of advantage/privilege (feedback loop as discussed all over) and exploitation (not solely as a moral issue, but that issue is inescapable). It’s impossible to be/become a millionaire without access to, an…

I don't know if you intentionally switched from billionaire to millionaire, but it seems entirely possible (and even somewhat common) to become a mere millionaire by actions and careers that most would consider virtuous combined with sound saving and investing strategies. I don't know if my parents are actually millionaires or not, but if not, they're not far off and they were both public school teachers whose parent…

No that was definitely an autocorrect misfire. Becoming a millionaire is accessible to most of the mid-upper middle class in the US. It does still press on the same levers, but increasingly in ways that are opaque to a the people entering.

Re: Billionaires Build

#612

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

lumost wrote: post #581

refurb wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would your comment read if you replaced the word “amass wealth” versus “create value”?

The point of the comment is that in many minds there is a cutoff where "create value" looks like hoarding. One could argue that the Tzar and other monarchies created value by providing stable governance, organizing the nation, preventing the tyranny of the majority, as well as keeping out the invaders. At some point, when the wealth gap is extreme enough and the circumstances of enough people is sufficiently degraded…

Is Bill Gates degrading or improving the lives of people on the whole? Same question for Elon Musk.

Re: Billionaires Build

#613

Post by nor-and-or-not » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 1:59 AM UTC

travisoneill1 wrote: post #553

nicoffeine wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a sheltered view of poverty. When you live in poverty, there is no such thing as peace or thinking about the future. You are trying to cope minute-by-minute with hunger, abuse, fear, and limitless insecurity. You know someone who is in jail, someone who has been shot/stabbed/murdered, and plenty of people who did all the right things and still failed to make it out. In a nutshell, there's no such thin…

Why do I meet so many happy poor people when I'm out of bubble, then?

Perhaps you are confusing kindness with happyness.

Re: Billionaires Build

#614

Post by jskajakzkjx » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:00 AM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #320

lotsofpulp wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what should happen to your assets when the total of their market capitalization crosses the $1B line?

I don’t know, many some more of the value of those assets could go to the workers who created the value.

Who’s going to invest the capital and do the work to run a company that develops technology (eg. hiring the tens of thousands of people required to fabricate 5 nm chips and build cell phones) if there is no way to become a billionaire off of it? I figure the people who are capable of that kind of stuff would put all their efforts toward overthrowing the system instead if that’s what the rules were.

Re: Billionaires Build

#615

Post by hnracer » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:04 AM UTC

chillwaves wrote: post #253

hnracer wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Familial wealth disperses and collapses pretty quickly, eventually being split up between 2 to the n heirs thereabouts. Irrespective, the wealth is the property of an individual who earned that wealth through voluntary exchange. If they want to give it all to their kids, to a charitable cause, or just destroy it, that should be their right as owners of that property, it is not just for the state to steal that propert…

> Irrespective, the wealth is the property of an individual who earned that wealth through voluntary exchange. Hard disagree. We won't see eye to eye on this point, and it really invalidates the rest of w hat you are saying.

If I'm a fitness coach charging $60/hour, all my customers are there because they think I'm providing a service of value greater than $60/hour. Perhaps their subjective value is $80/hour, so they get $20/hour benefit and decide voluntarily to engage in this transaction with me. This is a positive sum voluntary transaction where all parties are better off (except for the carbon pollution which we expelled to drive to the venue, which I think should be taxed!).

I find it hard to believe that anyone could disagree with the above, which means you must disagree that the fruits of this exchange should be my property. Well let me ask you this: the customer made $20 in utility by engaging in this transaction with me. Why should they be able to keep the $20 utility but I must give up part of the $60? And what right do you have to reach into my pocket? If my customers instead traded groceries for my hour of training, should I not be able to keep these groceries?Is it only money that makes the difference for you?

Re: Billionaires Build

#616

Post by freshhawk » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:06 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #577

mightybyte wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people Here's a slightly different take on this idea: The only way to become a billionaire is to use leverage. I think this is a much more defensible argument. You can't become a billionaire by yourself. You have to have some mechanism of leverage to magnify your impact. Hiring employees is a form of leverage. Using a computer is a form of leverage. Putting your…

OK, I'll step up and say it: I have no idea what "leverage" means in this text. From context I can tell it's something bad. I understand "leverage" in mechanics. I also understand that in "corporate-talk" it's just a synonym to "use".

"force" or "coerce", but more "civilized", generally more related to using indirect pressure, probably based on manipulating some larger system.

Think how a mobster in a movie might use it, "we leveraged the pictures of the cop to get warning of any raids". Same meaning, just about things that are legal.

Re: Billionaires Build

#617

Post by imgabe » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:07 AM UTC

arrosenberg wrote: post #609

robswc wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe the government has enough money, maybe it doesn't. This is exactly the problem I have with this "taxing the wealthy will fix it" arguments. What happens if it is the latter? What happens if taxing the rich doesn't fix it and actually makes things worse? >His wealth also gives him disproportionate power to shape the incentives of the government, the economy, and the media narrative. Disproportionate to what? >T…

> What happens if taxing the rich doesn't fix it and actually makes things worse? How is it going to be worse if Jeff Bezos is worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000? I don't get it - America doesn't have a Communist party, what are you picturing happening here? > Disproportionate to what? Me. If he wants a policy to change, he has lobbyists and the Washington Post. If I want to change a policy I have to s…

> How is it going to be worse if Jeff Bezos is worth $50,000,000,000 instead of $180,000,000,000?

Hmm, how would it be if Amazon stock dropped in price by 73%? Actually, I think that would be pretty bad. Ironically, least of all for Jeff Bezos. How good would it be for you if your 401k dropped by that much?

Or maybe you're thinking we could just confiscate the stock, or force him to sell it. Sell it to whom? Other billionaires? And do you think this wouldn't have an effect on the stock prices (i.e. people's retirement funds) and availability of capital (i.e. money to pay people's salaries)?

Re: Billionaires Build

#618

Post by wyre » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:07 AM UTC

travisoneill1 wrote: post #553

nicoffeine wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a sheltered view of poverty. When you live in poverty, there is no such thing as peace or thinking about the future. You are trying to cope minute-by-minute with hunger, abuse, fear, and limitless insecurity. You know someone who is in jail, someone who has been shot/stabbed/murdered, and plenty of people who did all the right things and still failed to make it out. In a nutshell, there's no such thin…

Why do I meet so many happy poor people when I'm out of bubble, then?

You anecdote doesn’t mean anything. Poor people might be more likely to fake being happy so they can avoid judgement or any other reason to fake happiness.

It’s been proven in several studies that income is linked to happiness.

Re: Billionaires Build

#619

Post by freshhawk » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

UK-Al05 wrote: post #462

ruined wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, one might make a moral judgement that exploitation is a tendency of capitalism, if one believes that people who control more capital have structural power over those who control less or no capital, thus narrowing the viable subjective preferences in a way that is "bad". but ltv on its own provides no such judgement, it simply describes the material relationship.

LTV on its own shows very little predictive value in the real world. Which is why it isn't used. Marginal economics explains and models a lot things we see in reality. I'm much more likely to believe a model that has predictive ability.

Leaning on the predictive power of "the dismal science" isn't a strong base to argue from.

Re: Billionaires Build

#620

Post by mark-r » Sat, Dec 05, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

Context_free wrote: post #396

tmcw wrote: post #191

56% of billionaires build. 44% of billionaires inherit.

Also if we look at the so-called "self-made" billionaires, Bill Gates went to a fancy prep school where grammar school students had access to a computer in the late 1960s . His great grandfather was a bank president, and he was born with a million dollar trust fund. His mother was on an executive committee with the CEO of IBM. Zuckerberg went to a high school, current tuition cost of which is over $57000 a year. Warr…

I think Bill Gates makes an excellent counterpoint for this article. He was known for treating business as a competitive game, trying to win at all costs. Look at the way he acquired MS-DOS for next to nothing from Seattle Computer Products. Yes, he got his start by being genuinely hard working and smart, but from that point on he exploited every way he could get away with.