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EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

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611–620 of 780 posts

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I believe it’s about individualism vs the collective. Here in Sweden we’ve seen a horrible development regarding gun violence - easy to chalk up to “immigration” and “soft laws” but in my mind it’s a lot deeper - interesting enough this is at the same time we have a record amount of dollar millionaires in the country. We used to work as a collective but our economic policies are turning more and more neoli…

Just to make sure I understand you correctly: You think the strong trend toward more incidents of more extreme violence in Swedish society is because we have more dollar millionaires?

Income inequality universally is a pretty good predictor for violent crime: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/06/07/the-star...

As the (still very low) income inequality is rising in Sweden(https://nordregio.org/nordregio-magazine/issues/state-of-the...), it isn't surprising violence rises, too.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#612

A middle ground in the encryption/privacy debate seems to be "the authorities can spy on what I do, but have to notify me first ". That could be implemented by having full e2e encryption as today, but requiring clients to hand over the keys when requested by a local governing authority. The client/app would then immediately show to the user "Local Authorities have viewed a copy of this message". Why isn't this middle…

> Why isn't this middle ground being discussed?

that's what they need to do even today after they have found enough evidence that the court sent you what's called "notice of inquiry" and preliminary investigations start (it doesn't mean yo are guilty, it means there's gonna be an official investigation on you and after the investigation has ended they're gonna either drop the charges or go to trial).

but crime prevention usually works best when investigations are kept secret.

Imagine if in Italy we called every mob boss the police was investigating on to tell them they were tapping their phones or checking their bank accounts.

They knew it anyway, but that's where the middle ground is.

Another possibility would be, as I've written somewhere else, that a pair of keys is always created and made available to the local authorities, but they have to be authorized from a judge to use them.

The encrypted data is instead kept on the provider side, so that even if someone steals the keys, they can't access the data because it is in a separate facility, protected in the same way it is today, because it's in the best interest of the provider, that is already collecting that data, to keep it safe.

And if someone steals the data, can't decrypt it.

Metadata are also very important to investigators, I imagine that their need to decrypt the conversations comes from the fact that with the metadata they can narrow down the number of suspects to a few, but without the actual content they can't tell exactly what's going on.

> if they read the messages and find you've done some crime, authorities will eventually track you down

that's not so obvious.

I could show you a lot of cases when this has not happened, for various reasons, most of them formal (tapping lasted a few hours more than authorized, tapping was badly misreported in some other meaningless section of the conversation but it's enough to nullify it in its entirety, tapping included someone else that was not under investigation that should have been removed from the records bu it's still there, etc. etc.)

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy is already a UHR according to UDHR article 12 [0] The problem with applying this is that the violation of privacy is not arbitrary , from the draft: > Law enforcement and judicial authorities must be able to access data in a lawful and targeted manner So this is framed as an matter of lawful and targeted intercept, not blanket bulk access, like pretty much all of the mass surveillance creep. [0] https://www.u…

As it should, but who will verify it's only used in that way? Who watches the watchmen? Snowden revealed that the watchmen (NSA) are scooping up all data they can find, and that they have easy access to big internet companies' data (and they're not allowed to mention your data was accessed, even if no charges were made).

Well that is the crux of the issue, how much do you trust your government and what are your options in supporting change. This may require a level of involvement in politics that is more time consuming than most want to expend or can.

This means if not actively supporting a candidate or current representative who shares your views that you instead convince them your view is worthwhile. If not actively finding one who does. Then even once that is accomplished you likely will need to be involved in writing to other representatives as well and coordinating with similarly minded groups across your country.

Politics is all about the networking to get enough voices to be heard and for something as arcane as encryption; and yes it is arcane for most; will not have as many groups focused on it. So your work is cut out for yourself in finding such groups or forming one.

in the US we have EFF and others; I am found of cato but many here do not understand libertarians. the truly sad part is most people really would be happy living in a police state as long as you don't call it one. they don't recognize how they could be in one because their view of what a police state is very heavily influenced by the media and even hollywood. most of what hollywood presents is truly exaggerated dystopian types that are borderline absurd but in truth it is the slow chipping away if not giving away of rights that does the same

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#614
post #535
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without public pressure it is not going to happen. German politicians have been positive towards this move recently (althought without mentioning it is already in progress). Sadly politics think it is the easiest solution to counter torrorism.

While at the same time these governments fail to properly use the information they have and are able to gather through traditional intelligence work properly to avoid the type of attacks they claim putting up backdoors will prevent. Most recently last weeks attack in Austria could have been avoided if the information the authorities received from a neighboring country of an attempt to purchase weapons by the attacker…

Too late to edit my previous post, but here is the article:

"Fejzulai is also believed to have travelled to neighbouring Slovakia in July accompanied by another man, where he attempted to buy ammunition suited to the weapons he used in the attack, but the sale reportedly fell through after he failed to produce a firearms licence.

Slovakian authorities are said to have informed their Austrian counterparts at the time. The men travelled in a car registered in the name of the mother of an Islamist known to police."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/04/police-investi...

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is so safe that instead of dying from war, famine or untreatable infectious disease, those in developed countries are dying from diseases of wealth and comfort.

Obesity does not imply over-use of food with high nutritional value. In other words, obesity comes from worse diets. The working classes are bombarded with corporate foods that contain way too much sugar, etc.

You still have to overeat to become obese. It does imply over-use of food, and at the same time diets may have gotten worse.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#616
post #608

A middle ground in the encryption/privacy debate seems to be "the authorities can spy on what I do, but have to notify me first ". That could be implemented by having full e2e encryption as today, but requiring clients to hand over the keys when requested by a local governing authority. The client/app would then immediately show to the user "Local Authorities have viewed a copy of this message". Why isn't this middle…

I would especially like to see a cryptographic mechanism enforcing such middle ground. That is, a mechanism that would allow law enforcement accessing the private key or plain text, but only with some inescapable side effect which would hinder abusing that power. That may be producing a cryptographic "proof of compromise" for the person being spied on, or the spying being publicized, possibly with some delay, or some…

But then again there is a mechanism already, just not cryptographic, and that is police having to physically seize your device. I guess we don't need to work on this. There's nothing special about an E2E communication device compared to other things you may have in your home.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about proposing encryption as an EU human right? Has that been attempted?

So really it wouldn’t be encryption so much as right to have secrets. Because whether I use EDCA or a really strongly in crackable safe, my right to privacy should be a thing? It sounds like somewhat of a stronger version than the US’s fifth amendment which says that you have a right to privacy unless it has to do with the crime currently being investigated. And come to think of it, encryption is unconstitutional as…

This is incorrect. The fourth amendment gives people the absolute right against "unreasonable search and seizure". This means the police may be granted access to search someone's property by a judge, if they are suspected of a crime. It does not give the government the right to find anything, only to search. Furthermore, the fifth amendment grants people the absolute right to not incriminate themselves. So if you know something (information about where the bodies are buried, passwords for decryption of encryption keys, etc.), you have the absolute right to not divulge that knowledge. So the people here have more rights than the government when a crime is being investigated.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#618
post #608

A middle ground in the encryption/privacy debate seems to be "the authorities can spy on what I do, but have to notify me first ". That could be implemented by having full e2e encryption as today, but requiring clients to hand over the keys when requested by a local governing authority. The client/app would then immediately show to the user "Local Authorities have viewed a copy of this message". Why isn't this middle…

I would especially like to see a cryptographic mechanism enforcing such middle ground. That is, a mechanism that would allow law enforcement accessing the private key or plain text, but only with some inescapable side effect which would hinder abusing that power. That may be producing a cryptographic "proof of compromise" for the person being spied on, or the spying being publicized, possibly with some delay, or some…

That system simply isn't possible, or at least there are no candidates for such a mechanism at this time.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#619

A middle ground in the encryption/privacy debate seems to be "the authorities can spy on what I do, but have to notify me first ". That could be implemented by having full e2e encryption as today, but requiring clients to hand over the keys when requested by a local governing authority. The client/app would then immediately show to the user "Local Authorities have viewed a copy of this message". Why isn't this middle…

Can't tell if you are serious. What is the point of spying then?

Reminds me of that law that says if you plan to spy on the US you have to register on a list first. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Ac...

This is a good middle ground for espionage.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#620
post #139

The brexit crowd is probably feeling vindicated.

Perhaps. Feeling is different to being, however. If the latest abuses of secondary legislation in the name of coronavirus and our government’s general disregard for the law doesn’t scare the sovereign types, I’m not sure what will
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