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The Four Quadrants of Conformism

paulgraham.com

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Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#611

Post by michaelmrose »

missosoup wrote: post #91
stopachka wrote: post #31

Loved this essay. The phrase “aggressively conventional minded” is genius, and may contribute a lot towards the solution. As someone coming from an ex-soviet state, I’ve felt personal alarm bells ring more and more, as I experience the kind of intolerance and double speak America is heading into. Both the left and the right my opinion are missing the key points on freedom (the left suppressing and labeling, the right…

Also from an ex soviet state. Also feel alarm bells going off. I'm legitimately scared. I've seen this before, I know where it goes. It's really hard to convey my feeling of alarm to people here though. Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it, I guess. Doesn't help that the conformists have been allowed to frame the narrative as 'either you agree with us, or you're literally Hitler/Stalin' depending on…

Am I misreading you or are you framing the left as the forces of conformity?

Only one side has badgeless forces snatching people off the streets and is talking about disregarding the results of our election.

My apologies if I misunderstood.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#612

Post by jonhohle »

saberience wrote: post #309
wrren wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People expressing their opinions about one's ideas is not cancel culture: it's when critics go one step further and try to destroy the person they disagree with. Many people have lost their livelihoods and even more are afraid to express their opinion at all because of the disproportionate cost they might incur. People having been structurally shielded from mob justice in the past is a state worth returning to.

"Many people have lost their livelihoods" Hmm, sounds intriguing. Do you have any sources for this or concrete examples which can be fact-checked?

The ones I can find quickly:

* Nicholas Sandmann (for an image taken out of context)

* Tenured UNC Professor Mike Adams

* Goya Foods' CEO Bob Unanue (attempted)

* Terese Nielsen (allegedly)

* Grant Napear

* Justin Kucera (allegedly)

* Aleksander Katai

* Kathleen Lowry

* JK Rowling (attempted)

* Cornell Professor Dave Collum

* Stephen Hsu

* Leslie Neal-Boylan

* James Bennet

* Melissa Rolfe

* Emmanuel Cafferty

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#613

Post by [deleted] »

AlanYx wrote: post #330
ekianjo wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first best instance of this was during the French Revolution. People were guillotined in droves for being not merely enthusiastic enough.

I think there are some important qualitative differences with the French Revolution, at least in its relationship with the academy (although I'm not an expert). During the French Revolution, most of the aristocratic cadre of scientists did lose their positions, but less than a year into the Terror, the Institut de France was established with more-or-less conventional takes on merit and the scientific method. In the c…

[deleted]

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#614

Post by iamwil »

PaulHoule wrote: post #80
stopachka wrote: post #31

Loved this essay. The phrase “aggressively conventional minded” is genius, and may contribute a lot towards the solution. As someone coming from an ex-soviet state, I’ve felt personal alarm bells ring more and more, as I experience the kind of intolerance and double speak America is heading into. Both the left and the right my opinion are missing the key points on freedom (the left suppressing and labeling, the right…

It's his personal problem. He built the ultimate machine to attract conformists who want to get another badge. First the conformists will push out individualists by their sheer bulk and better ability to navigate the approval process. (It's their core competency in life!) Y Combinator is a plant that has grown too large for its pot. Someday something is going to go wrong, there are so many people going through it tha…

He hasn't been running YC for years now. He left it to Sam Altman to run for the last couple of years. And even Sam has left the post to Geoff Ralston, which is currently running it. PG's twice removed. We're on Thomas Jefferson now.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#615

Post by avs733 »

smhost wrote: post #587

This is so meandering and incoherent that it's hard to comment on, but the idea that silicon valley and finance types are "independent-minded" is downright laughable. It's pretty clear that those types are in lock-step with each other ideologically, maybe broadly split between east-coast and west-coast aesthetically. This categorization is such nonsense. People in the hard sciences don't neatly fall into a type, and…

Excessive dimension reduction is a scourge in social science, and in societal commentary by just about everyone. So, yes - I agree with your point entirely, and I think it can be made much more concrete honestly by adding another dimension:

The why of independence

Notably, that is the harder one to create a surface level observation of. But take his favored quadrant:

"And the kids in the upper right quadrant, the aggressively independent-minded, are the naughty ones. When they see a rule, their first impulse is to question it. Merely being told what to do makes them inclined to do the opposite."

Is it merely being told what to do causes them to question something? So its the rule demands questioning of it? or is what he is really looking for that they question the reasoning and demand valid reasoning? One is just contrarian, one is self aware. Some people start with contrarianism as a poorly articulated path to demanding valid reasoning...At times Elon Musk sounds like a contrarian, at times he sounds like a reasoned risk taker, I'm not investing in that.

In the end, Paul sounds a bit like he's trying to take a roundabout way to make fun of the high school jocks...

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#616

Post by iamwil »

PaulHoule wrote: post #295
mrtksn wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there more context on this? Why is he in the UK for example?

It's interesting that he doesn't share anything about his life, isn't it? Even if his body is not in the Bay Area he doesn't show any evidence of having been around. Even Piers Anthony would talk about the random things that happened in his life, but Graham doesn't.

He's raising his kids. It's understandable if someone doesn't want to talk about the comings and goings of their family and personal life.

Occasionally he'll tweet out "darn things my kids say". But no, it's not interesting at all he doesn't share anything about his life.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#617

Post by kutorio »

Initially I wondered if pg was insinuating that startup hubs could replace universities as the new haven of independent thinking:

> "People who would have become professors 50 years ago have other options now. Now they can become quants or start startups."

> "If existing institutions are compromised, they'll create new ones."

However, after reading through the essay a second time, I'm more pessimistic about the positive conclusion of the essay. If startups succeed by "make stuff people want", and given there are "far more conventional-minded people than independent-minded ones", then perhaps independent-minded CEOs making tools for conventional-minded people is not a rare accident, but rather an inevitability.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#618

Post by Misdicorl »

olalonde wrote: post #272
Misdicorl wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is silly. The world isn't balanced like that. Many improvements have no disadvantage. More efficient photovoltaic cells, not needing hfcfs in pressurized spray cans, discovering that you can add a bit of carbon to iron, ...

You could argue that automation is one of those improvements with no disadvantage. But it can also result in people losing their jobs and those people might be opposed to it. I would argue that the same is true with the gig economy. It benefits the people participating in it greatly but it also cost some people their jobs (e.g. taxi drivers).

One of the most embattled changes of the last 20 years is not likely to make the list of `improvements with no disadvantage`...

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#619

Post by kazagistar »

missosoup wrote: post #91
stopachka wrote: post #31

Loved this essay. The phrase “aggressively conventional minded” is genius, and may contribute a lot towards the solution. As someone coming from an ex-soviet state, I’ve felt personal alarm bells ring more and more, as I experience the kind of intolerance and double speak America is heading into. Both the left and the right my opinion are missing the key points on freedom (the left suppressing and labeling, the right…

Also from an ex soviet state. Also feel alarm bells going off. I'm legitimately scared. I've seen this before, I know where it goes. It's really hard to convey my feeling of alarm to people here though. Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it, I guess. Doesn't help that the conformists have been allowed to frame the narrative as 'either you agree with us, or you're literally Hitler/Stalin' depending on…

How old are you that you've seen this before? If you are just seeing similarities to soviet steady state society, they might not mean we are headed towards that state, since its unclear if the process that birthed the social order you experienced was similar to it at all.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#620

Post by thaumaturgy »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #353
thaumaturgy wrote: post #217

Isn't it funny how things like this are never written by the boring types? It's always those wild, maverick, enlightened types seeking to describe themselves and, along the way, describe others, but mostly to describe themselves in flattering terms, with just a light veneer of modesty. (The self-assessed MBTI INTJs are just fantastically entertaining at this.) "All great ideas come from us," beams the self-described…

Seems to me like you made your mind up before even reading it. > "Arbitrary" ways. It's spelled "arbitrary". There are a plethora of categorical little boxes that people can try to fit other people into, and some of those have value sometimes, but they often also cause people to see other people as only their boxes. I'm sure PG would agree with your last sentence. But your point is irrelevant here. > Imagine never ha…

> Whoever is loudly saying something that is unpopular is part of the "aggressively independent-minded" group.

Okay then.

I hereby loudly proclaim that, in the interests of the health and well-being of society at large, we must establish strong governmental oversight of online forums and communications, and immediately ban anything judged to be disinformation.

You are, as you note, free to disagree with me. But you must now respect my idea, and by extension me, because now I too am "aggressively independent-minded", and without people like me, the world would not have any great new ideas.

Furthermore, according to the larger point of PG's essay and your defense of it, you must not in any way interfere with my attempts to spread this message far and wide and enshrine it legislatively. If you do, you'll be showing yourself to be one of the conventional-minded people, standing in the way of my great idea and true progress for society, and the world certainly does not need more of those.

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