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Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

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Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#611

I wanted to share a debate on topic " Constitutional Free Speech Principles Can Save Social Media Companies from Themselves ". https://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/constitutional... . Main Points from the page. - The First Amendment is content-neutral and provides a nonpolitical framework for regulating speech. It would behoove social media companies to abide by it. - Rather than resort to censorship, social…

Is the problem not precisely that there are very apparent and relevant conflicts between these points? Reconciling free speech with "offer[ing a] safe, welcoming platforms for users" is exactly what's at play here when it comes to TOS and deleting content.

> "Rather than resort to censorship, social media companies can offer users tools that block unwanted content, including content that could be hurtful or offensive."

I think this is an interesting idea, but I think it would effectively mean de facto speech censorship like HN has with flagged/dead comments. Sure they exist, but most users don't have them on, and the larger the forum, the more annoying having them on will be. Given the amount of spam/hate comments on Twitter, no sane user would ever turn that feature on. So you end up right back where we are now, only by technicality they aren't censored. I suppose a positive, but then it gets right back into editorialization arguments re what content is flagged or "blocked".

> Social media companies must act to prevent this type of conduct.

Even if most can agree here, this doesn't appear to lay out concrete policies, nor does anyone appear to have any proposed that align with these main points that I know of. I didn't watch the media specifically so if you have any detail on those specifics or any concrete recommendations they make, a summary would be very much appreciated.

Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#612
post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this from friends who are Limbaugh fans, but I'd like to see some other source. Many people on the Left seem to think this whole "voter fraud" concern is a fig leaf for denying minorities their voting rights. When I've listened and asked follow-up questions, the Left's narrative seems more plausible.

PDF of individual confirmed cases: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/docs/p... Spot-checking and using search for counts, most are manipulation of mail-in or absentee ballots (many being a bunch of ballots by a single person), with the next highest looking like individual people voting who didn't realize they were ineligible.

OK, now where's the .PDF of individual confirmed cases of in-person vote fraud versus vote-by-mail fraud? We can't compare fractions by their numerators, you know.

The document itself admits that it is "only a sampling," which, in the absence of further methodological detail, should raise their hairs on the back of your neck.

Nobody ever said that vote-by-mail is fraud proof, only that it's good enough. Which it indisputably is, at least as implemented here in Washington state.

Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#613
post #261
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it’s about ethics and morals and how we compose a society with mighty power imbalances, fortified by new tech. But that's not what this is really about. This is about the President being angry that Twitter fact checked him and using executive power to create a chilling effect against any platform doing so in the future. It's about fears of a nonexistent conspiracy controlling the media becoming the basis for authori…

Again, this has been drafted since at least last summer and has little to do with the recent twitter news. https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/politics/trump-twitter-social... . > consistent with a draft order whose text CNN first reported last summer

1. That link is broken.

2. What was drafted last summer was legislation. Legislation that would likely not stand up to political or legal resistance. This is an executive order to make an end-run around all that "bureaucracy".

> has little to do with the recent twitter news.

This fails the plausibility test. This came hot on the heels of this incident, Trump _said_ it was related to this incident, and that he'd be doing this as result, and the last several years are packed with a multitude of examples of exactly that: Trump knee-jerking an angry response (words, actions, both) to those who he deems to have slighted him.

Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#615

Seems counter productive to the President's intent. If platforms can be held liable for user posts, that will give them a strong incentive to remove anything at all that might even come close to giving them legal liability. So sure, maybe changing the law (or asking the FCC to reinterpret its strictures) would "get back" at the companies President Trump thinks are doing something wrong to him, but the net results wou…

The idea is that it would be impossible for Twitter to remove every single Tweet that's libelous, threatening, etc., and so the only way to avoid being sued is to not remove _anything_. That ends up being a policy that is favorable to people who want to spread disinformation.

It would probably results in a mass exodus of discussion on the internet as every single platform from Twitter to niche forums on obscure topics suddenly were not allowed to perform any sort of moderation without incurring legal liability. Thus the decision to abandon the discussion venue or watch it descent into something resembling the toxic cesspools seen in places like 8chan.

Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#616

I will reemphasize an opinion I expressed on an earlier thread: this is an overtly totalitarian move designed to intimidate and suppress private entities' protected expression, disguised as a reaction to perceived bias (which would still be an invalid pretense for any such order). It's a disgusting attack on an American industry by our own executive.

Is providing fact-check links to the tweets of a specific person or group considered editorizing? Twitter said offering fact-check was not editorization, but the critics said that fact-checking a targeted group was. I have yet to see anyone clarify that key difference.

Since they do not alter the content of the tweet itself in any way, and since "fact check" link itself does not express an opinion (eg: it just says "get the facts" as opposed to "potentially misleading") then it seems extremely hard to arge that it's editorialising of the tweet. If the fact check page contains very opinionated content written by Twitter employees then it might bring it closer into consideration, but if the fact check page factually summarises and cites external sources again it is hard to argue.

Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#617
post #92

What's surprising is how often I encounter fellow Americans mistakenly asserting the first amendment extends beyond government and into the private sector. It's like they've never even been to a movie theater where they need to shut the hell up or leave. And here we have a US president signing an executive order in response to being moderated on a web site after years of arguably excessive tolerance of his b.s. I'm n…

Talking as an outsider, what's really weird to me is how the things Trump clearly says or does on a whim result in serious, deep debate in all the media and public forums. He goes "I will build a wall spanning a continent to stop mexicans" and you see deep debate about how effective it would be, the price, the logistics of it... it's clearly a dumb idea, why does everyone pretend it's not and engage in deep considera…

> it's clearly a dumb idea, why does everyone pretend it's not and engage in deep consideration of it?

I've learned that Trump is an incredibly dull instrument, but the points he raises (when you get past the verbal diarrhea) tend to be things that some significant fraction of his "base" care about or that are not actually novel policy ideas. "The wall" as he describes it is dumb. But it has existed in some form since the 1990s (albeit only segments) and the way he describes it is a simple symbol for people that tend not to know how to "solve" problems related to (illegal?) immigration.

Most average people don't care about policy details so they don't know how to argue them to "win the argument". Trump gives them a sports team to cheer for and simple slogans to shout so they feel like they are participating.

> when it is painfully obvious that the only reasoning by the president is "they messed with me so I'm going to get revenge".

The problems that Trump has with social media companies go back far more than 2 days and a fact checking link. His Attorney Generals (both Barr and Sessions) have been working with Republican state Attorneys General for years to craft a response to what they see is "liberal Silicon Valley techies banning (or shadowbanning or remonetizing or ...) conservative voices". Trump doesn't see a downside to taking this action.

The interesting thing is that there are far more than just political American conservatives that want to see regulation of {YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, etc}. Elizabeth Warren wrote a detailed essay on medium.com about why they should be more strictly regulated. A crazy YouTuber from San Diego got so pissed at YouTube for banning her account or demonetizing her channel that she drove up to San Bruno (not sure exactly which city/location) and shot up the building. There are quite a few stories of vague ToS being enforced in a not-so-predictable manner which leaves end users with banned accounts (which may be the nexus to more important accounts like email accounts).

Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#618
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as there ever really were "small government republicans" there certainly aren't any today. "Owning the libs" is the only reason the current batch of conservatives gets out of bed in the morning. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nratv-dan-bongino-my-life-is-...

> Owning the libs We should call what it is. They working to make the lives of other US citizens as miserable as they can. Whoever does this is working against their own country. This is unpatriotic.

This is lazy thinking. Telling yourself that the other side is evil is a short-cut for the incurious.

Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think Twitter is a public space. Your use of twitter is governed by agreeing to its T&C’s. You agree to them when signing up and violating them will result in bans.

You're just repeating what the current state of affairs is. Doesn't mean it has to stay that way.

Then perhaps let us debate that in a reasoned and considered manner, rather than an executive order that Trump himself describe as a lashing out at Twitter.

Re: Trump signs executive order targeting protections for social media companies

#620
post #2

The biggest takeaway, looking past the headline: “This week a federal appeals court, ruling in a case brought by conservative activists against social media companies, affirmed that private websites are not public spaces and social media companies don't have First Amendment obligations. Any truly strong limits to Section 230 would almost certainly require action by Congress.”

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