Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work • Hacker News Board

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#611

Post by neonate » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:10 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #578

neonate wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that is such a clear analysis that someone should transcribe it. Here's the main part of what Naval says: "If Google, Facebook, and Twitter had been smart about this, they would not have picked sides. They would have said "We're publishers. Whatever goes through our pipes goes through our pipes. If it's illegal, we'll take it down. Give us a court order. Otherwise we don't touch it." It's like the phone company.…

They did this for many years - when I moved to Silicon Valley in 2009 tech's attitude was "We just provide the mechanism, we let our users determine policy". My first couple years at Google (09-10), management was very insistent that "We don't take sides - we show the user the best result for their query regardless of how much we dislike it." There were examples like literal searches for Nazis where the top result wa…

> Public discourse shifted into "silence is complicitness - if you allow this speech on your platform, that means that you endorse it."

Public discourse? Or the loudest segment of the discourse most influential on Googlers?

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#612

Post by friendlybus » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:10 PM UTC

jka wrote: post #569

friendlybus wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that like the rest of the gov does not exist. The mere knowledge that a dangerous program exists can be reported to the FBI with all relevant information without Github having to run a gestapo firewall on all content it hosts.

Can everyone in the world appeal to the FBI?

Yes? No? I don't know what happens when an Iranian sees a hostile app on Github to his interests and then reports it to the FBI. It'll probably work for countries close to the US. Microsoft will probably make relevant info available to the UK, but obviously not Iran.

I mean if your qualifying rule is everyone in the world, you've given Github the job of being world police. A role that won't make an earth shattering impact because bad actors can make those same programs offline. Why not have it in the light where we can see it coming? Being world police is the gov's job. Github should be treated as an american service and be required to respect only the gov's the US cares about and let the rest of the world use it on an "as is" basis.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#613

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:10 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #300

jlawson wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The health of democracy requires that individuals be able to speak their mind and advocate their beliefs. This doesn't work if their livelihood is controlled by a group of hyper-intolerant political totalitarians. What GitHub is doing is giving individuals rooms to breathe, think, and live. It's preventing the rule of the intolerant minority, the forced homogenization of thought and suppression of dissent. We banned…

>It's preventing the rule of the intolerant minority... If a majority want to discuss politics and political change, isn't this just an intolerant majority enforcing their politics on everyone? Unless someone is the type of person who would never advocate for any change no matter what happened to them, from being made King to being made a slave, then they aren't actually apolitical. Everyone who doesn't want to discu…

Politics isn't an atomic unit. It's perfectly normal - and arguably the default state - to be apolitical on many if not most issues.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#614

Post by whytaka » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:10 PM UTC

Tehchops wrote: post #118

malvosenior wrote: post #10

I'm sure everyone who has to earn a living to support their family will appreciate this move. Nothing is worse than politics at work, where you may lose your paycheck if you don't align with the correct factions.

What are the correct factions?

What are your moral convictions?

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#615

Post by dang » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:11 PM UTC

rolltiide wrote: post #484

sonotathrowaway wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a po…

had me in the first half

Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21078125

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20722525

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599451

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20140962

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#616

Post by bluntfang » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:12 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #524

jetpks wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women were barely allowed into workplaces in general within the last 50 years and are still fighting biases that have existed for millennia. Fixing the lack of women in tech is a multi-century process, not something that's just knocked out in as little as 15 years. We'd be lucky to start seeing the needle move in such a short amount of time.

Interestingly, the rates of women in tech were higher 50 years ago than they are today. Reduction in inequality between men and women has an inverse relationship with rates of women in engineering. The countries with large inequality between men and women like Indonesia and India have some of the highest rates of women on tech. Egalitarian countries like those in Scandinavia have the lowest rates. The idea that low r…

>Reduction in inequality between men and women has an inverse relationship with rates of women in engineering.

Who's to say there's a reduction? Have you been paying attention? There's a reason people are upset about this. Look who our president is and how many outstanding sexual assault allegations he has against him.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#617

Post by noelsusman » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

neonate wrote: post #280

anm89 wrote: post #129

I personally think this is awesome. I don't wan't some git hosting startup to be the arbiter of morality for society. The engineers, designers, and PMs shouldn't have an outsized voice in society because they have a specialized useful skillset and ended up on a successful product. If these users are breaking laws, then put them out of business via the courts and sieze the assets (the repos in this case) via legal mea…

Wow, that is such a clear analysis that someone should transcribe it. Here's the main part of what Naval says: "If Google, Facebook, and Twitter had been smart about this, they would not have picked sides. They would have said "We're publishers. Whatever goes through our pipes goes through our pipes. If it's illegal, we'll take it down. Give us a court order. Otherwise we don't touch it." It's like the phone company.…

Google, Facebook, and Twitter are not "literally picking" the next president or the next congressman. That is delusional.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#618

Post by prepend » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

xenocyon wrote: post #400

anm89 wrote: post #129

I personally think this is awesome. I don't wan't some git hosting startup to be the arbiter of morality for society. The engineers, designers, and PMs shouldn't have an outsized voice in society because they have a specialized useful skillset and ended up on a successful product. If these users are breaking laws, then put them out of business via the courts and sieze the assets (the repos in this case) via legal mea…

Counterpoint: many tech workers want some agency over what they are building and don't want to be forced to work on nefarious applications. I don't seek an outsized claim on society but I do reserve the right to decide what my hands will - or won't - build.

That’s why I like posts like this from GitLab. They are clear what their priorities are so you can choose what to build with your hands.

Lots of people don’t care or don’t have time to evaluate the thousands or millions of customers using software. The evaluation never ends so even if you shut off the really bad one, there will be another.

Picking a legal limit let’s me focus on other things.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#619

Post by dv_dt » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #524

jetpks wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women were barely allowed into workplaces in general within the last 50 years and are still fighting biases that have existed for millennia. Fixing the lack of women in tech is a multi-century process, not something that's just knocked out in as little as 15 years. We'd be lucky to start seeing the needle move in such a short amount of time.

Interestingly, the rates of women in tech were higher 50 years ago than they are today. Reduction in inequality between men and women has an inverse relationship with rates of women in engineering. The countries with large inequality between men and women like Indonesia and India have some of the highest rates of women on tech. Egalitarian countries like those in Scandinavia have the lowest rates. The idea that low r…

I think those are interesting data points, but it's hard to take that data and clearly conclude there is a non-problem.

For one, 50 years ago in America, women were unintentionally at the frontline of computers perhaps because high numbers of women were the "computers" before machine computers were introduced. And when the machine computers were introduced, the departments of women "computers" got exposure to them perhaps because of a high overlap in the departmental "compute" functions.

Similarly if you look at high level women in computing from 50 years ago, they often got chances to apply their extraordinary skills because they happened across extraordinary opportunities - in some part because no-one else was above them for unique job, nor was there a formal role to hire for and choose between a woman or man. Another contributing factor might be the nature of war as well as the newness of the tech that created a temporary gender-blind vacuum.

Re: Gitlab: don't discuss politics at work

#620

Post by alisonatwork » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #566

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #168

Without trying to be inflammatory in any manner, I will say that it takes a certain level of privilege to say one shouldn’t discuss politics at work. If you disagree I’m happy to discuss this viewpoint rather than being downvoted to oblivion. Lots of issues are deemed “political”, but imagine you fall into one of the marginalized groups: — lgbt: Don’t discuss the possibility about being fired for your sexuality becau…

Others made good general and specific arguments for avoiding such discussions at a workplace, but I'd like to offer a thought experiment that can help understand it better. Imagine yourself noticing that people around you start to reveal themselves as strongly religious - and not in your religion, if you subscribe to any - and very much into proselytizing. Not a day goes by without someone approaching you to convince…

This is not a fair comparison. The OC was not talking about proselytizing, they were talking about how to create an inclusive environment at work. We cannot create an inclusive environment at work if we are not allowed to openly talk about groups who currently do not feel included and why that is.