Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dr. Jordan Peterson has much to say about this in terms of Psychology [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOjzCi9wIhE
tl;dw please?
play on 2x he's no ben shapiro when it comes to talking fast
Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
611–620 of 626 posts
Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#612Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems like an extremely reductive view to take: you can't use time and family to buy food. Gender roles aren't so cut and dry any more. Given that, maybe outcomes should be considered independent of gender?
> you can't use time and family to buy food. Yes, but you also don't need millions. Any measures of pay inequality will be skewed by extreme outcomes (as the distribution is floored), so people who decide they earn enough and prioritize time/family over further career progress will appear in statistics as "inequality" (edit: even though it's actually good that our society is so wealthy and productive that some people…
> so people who decide they earn enough and prioritize time/family over further career progress will appear in statistics as "inequality"
It's even worse than that. According to the same statistics, a person who bought a ticket for their favourite band's performance last night is worse off than a day before, whereas their favourite band are better off. In fact, the statistics would show that inequality increased dramatically last night, the band was famous and there were 10k+ people giving away their money, whereas - let's say, five - random guys got "significantly richer" at the same time.
The value of the emotional uplifting and sense of life after the gig? Nah, not an asset to rely upon in "strict" statistics.
Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#613Earlier quoted context omitted.
Amount of training required. I'd be fine with a random anesthesiologist teaching my grade schooler, but I'd hesitate to have a random elementary school teacher giving him anesthesia. Elementary school teaching: a teaching certificate. University professor: PhD, pre-tenure work & published research (Note that there are less-qualified people teaching in universities that are compensated much less.) Nurse practitioner:…
Amount of training is not the reason. It's supply and demand. Training requirements reduce supply, but that's only part of it. Not many people can play bagpipes, so supply is low. But not many people will pay to hear bagpipes, so demand is low, too. Bagpiping doesn't pay well. Nearly everyone needs food cooked, so demand is high. But nearly everyone can cook, so supply is high, too. Cooking doesn't pay well. Not many…
I agree that training requirements affect salary primarily by limiting supply. But I think the description of supply and demand above is inaccurate because of the many distortions in these markets, including teachers unions, monopsony providers/employers in public education, insurance company contracts, lack of price information, etc.
These market distortions affect the prices and thus the salaries in various ways. Teacher shortages show that the wage is not sensitive to the supply and demand for teachers. Do people shop around for price on needed surgeries? Do they even know the price before receiving the surgery? Do they even pay the price of the surgery? (usually paying some subsidized part of a contractually limited price).
Basketball stars show another market distortion, particularly in college basketball. The player salary is not governed by supply and demand, but by the cartel of college sports (though colleges do compete on non-salary benefits they provide...)
You could assert that these factors just inflate or reduce the supply or the demand, but it's not simply "lots of people want but few provide therefore it pays well".
Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#614Earlier quoted context omitted.
1. Could you provide a source showing this discrimination in school? I went to school, men and women were definitely told they could be anything. Also the schools are extremely left-wing SJW(Canadian schools teach children that the right-wing are all racists) so I find this assertion to be immensely unlikely. 2. Teachers in Ontario receive ~$140,000/year for 8 months of work, 5 hours a day. This is publicly available…
> 2. Teachers in Ontario receive ~$140,000/year for 8 months of work, 5 hours a day. This is publicly available via the sunshine list. If you're using teachers as an example of bias. You're barking up the wrong tree here these inflated teacher wages raise the wages of women on average. "5 hours a day" because all the material and lesson plans just appears out of nowhere along with all the graded work and administrati…
>> average salary in 2016-17 was ~$38k [0]
average STARTING salary -- I think you knew that and "conveniently" left out that one important word. Big difference.
A very brief look at your NEA source (i.e. the lobbying org for teachers, so of course it is biased) reveals that it is obviously flawed. $38+change is the average of each state's average salary -- like the Senate, it gives equal representation to California and to Wyoming. It's pretty easy to see that the most populous states tend to have averages above $38k, in fact many well above $40 (Cali, Texas, NY, PA) while many of the lowest salaries are from much smaller states (W.Va, Montana, Idaho). There is no way, if the state averages are accurate, that the national average is only $38+change. I think you know this too but choose to quote these stats verbatim anyway.
I will also note public school teachers have almost zero chance of getting fired, no worries about their "company" going out of business or bought out or taken over, and become eligible for generous pensions.
Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#615Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, its mostly because turning down a offer(no matter what that is) from Google screams privilege. There are a lot of things related to prestige, and other hiring marketing related things that have built up this enormous clout of you having arrived at a big place in life if you land a job at FAANG companies. So people just take whatever is offered. Because, there are tens of thousands of people applying for these job…
> So people just take whatever is offered. Because, there are tens of thousands of people applying for these jobs. Most of them are likely to better than you and they didn't crack all competitive coding style interview to land a job like you did. So people just find it hard to turn down the offer and take it. I don't speak for everyone obviously but the reason I took the offer is that it will still >50% what I was ma…
>>I didn't bother looking into how much other people make.
>>People at Google seem to be just like people at other companies. They're happy they have a good job but look forward to retirement.
Not sure what's your point here. The whole reason this discussion seems to be happening is because a segment of people think that is not true.
If that is true in your case, why would you even argue? It does not even apply to you.
Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#616Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed, “hours worked” is starting to look like a dog whistle in these threads
How is it a dog whistle? How can you accurately compare unless you take such factors into account? Are you saying it's statistically insignificant?
I’m saying “hours worked” is a straw man to some extent since everybody is exempt so what does it matter?
Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#617Earlier quoted context omitted.
It wouldn't be the first time a news article had a poor understanding of statistics. But more importantly, you may find men occupy high salary roles in engineering whilst women work in HR - resulting in the salary changes going disproportionately to men, because a % increase in their salary is far higher than the women on lower salaries.
> But more importantly, you may find men occupy high salary roles in engineering whilst women work in HR - resulting in the salary changes going disproportionately to men, because a % increase in their salary is far higher than the women on lower salaries. The article says the opposite with regard to where the salary adjustments went: > One effect of the adjustments was to create a pronounced imbalance in compensatio…
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Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#618Earlier quoted context omitted.
The passage you quote makes it clear the disparity is in absolute numbers, not proportions, as your earlier comment suggests. Btw, note that this passage (that I also quoted yesterday for a comment of my own) is now nowhere to be found in the article, that has been heaviy edited since it was posted on HN.
> The passage you quote makes it clear the disparity is in absolute numbers, not proportions, as your earlier comment suggests. It says no such thing. The "large number" of underpaid men is not being compared against the number of underpaid women. The article still contains these quotes, which clearly establish that the equity pay raises went disproportionately to men: > The study, which disproportionately led to pay…
>> a large number of men identified as being underpaid compared with their female peers
This sentence compares the number of men identified as underpaid to the number of women identified as underpaid.
>> The study, which disproportionately led to pay raises for thousands of men
"Disproportionate" is used to signify something that is "out of proportion", in a lay sense, not in the mathematical sense of the ratio between two numbers. It is not a mathematical term that signifies a comparison between percentages, as your comment seems to suggest.
>> they received a higher percentage of the money.
This says nothing about the proportion of men or women who were found to be underpaid. It refers to the percentage of men who received more money. The justification for that is that there are more men in the company.
Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#619Earlier quoted context omitted.
The explanation is simple. When you provide women the opportunity to become anything they want. They choose the careers that they choose. Which tend to me more social related careers. Teaching or nursing for example does not scale well; therefore salaries are limited. Whereas men pick more "stuff" categories. It's men who work in STEM creating things. A car or an iphone is going to be generally speaking men who desig…
The 'people just choosing different careers' throws a lot of inequality under a rug and calls the problem solved. 1) If we tell women their whole childhood that some jobs are for men and some are for women and vice versa for men then ask them when they turn 18 what job they want we'll get horrendously unequal outcomes even though people are completely free to choose. 2) Valuation of jobs is based partially on the vie…
> Valuation of jobs is based partially on the view of the value of the work
This is false on multiple levels. Functional water treatment have a much bigger effect on health then functional health care, but water treatment employees are paid far less than doctors. We can likely make a similar argument for sewer treatment, garbage collection and mortuaries. We can see similar disconnect between teachers and veterinarians, where those that work with our children are paid less than those working with our pets.
A large part of Marxism is the disconnection between pay and value. There is no easy answers and bias is a poor explanation in order to understand the issue.
Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men
#620Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's not act as though those are in any ways similar. Elementary school teaching does require less academic rigor than a university professor. Same applies to RNs vs an anesthesiologist. I do not mean to belittle those career choices (if anything, I myself want to become a k12 school teacher at some point in life). But, there are a certain set of traits that are needed to excel at the 'prestigious' careers. Disposit…
> Elementary school teaching does require less academic rigor than a university professor. But you replace that with a need for a lot more knowledge of teaching and child psychology, so I'd say doing a good job is significantly harder even in the sense of requiring a lot of education.
There is a relative recent (<10 years) government study in Sweden that looked at gender segregation of the teaching profession, and one suggestion they made to make the profession more gender equal and bring more men into the profession was to focus the program to include more academic studies.