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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#611

Post by [deleted] »

ipsa wrote: post #578
bduerst wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Google did not remove blacklisted sites from results, users clicking on the link would still not be able to load the site because it's China censoring the content, not Google. How do you feel about Google respecting the EU's right to be forgotten? Over 40,000 requests from politicians have been received to remove themselves from search results. Do you agree with Google abiding by this form of censorship? Whic…

You can solve this "if against Z, then what about X"? Think of the user. Does a user benefit from being able to clear a permanent record, long after punishment has been served? Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? You can be for the right to be forgotten (and admit to its abuses by politicians and rich hucksters), and against government censorship. This distinction is powerful and therefor oft…

[deleted]

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#612

Post by bduerst »

retromario wrote: post #603
bduerst wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't really hesitate, they just dodged questions. Apple moved their user data and keystore to local datacenters in China [1]. Apple even updated their TOS and forced their Chinese users to accept (or drop service) to reflect this. As of July, these datacenters were nationalized [2], giving the Chinese government access to all Apple user data. It took only two years to go from refusing the FBI request for one u…

fyi neither of your links work.

Fixed - thanks.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#613

Post by tuxxy »

Puer wrote: post #38

I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…

> I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google.

How can you say this when those that build, even small parts, of surveillance technology are directly contributing to oppression?

Workers absolutely have a moral obligation to what they work on. This notion that they're not responsible for this is horrifically wrong.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#614

Post by bduerst »

ipsa wrote: post #578
bduerst wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Google did not remove blacklisted sites from results, users clicking on the link would still not be able to load the site because it's China censoring the content, not Google. How do you feel about Google respecting the EU's right to be forgotten? Over 40,000 requests from politicians have been received to remove themselves from search results. Do you agree with Google abiding by this form of censorship? Whic…

You can solve this "if against Z, then what about X"? Think of the user. Does a user benefit from being able to clear a permanent record, long after punishment has been served? Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? You can be for the right to be forgotten (and admit to its abuses by politicians and rich hucksters), and against government censorship. This distinction is powerful and therefor oft…

>Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying?

This is irrelevant because Dragonfly is about bringing search to China, not handing over access to user data to the government.

The Chinese firewall blocks 18k websites. The Right to be Forgotten is censoring way more information than China's firewall because it is allowing government officials to specifically target and censor all information about themselves, not just generic websites.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#615

Post by galvarez800 »

scarface74 wrote: post #575
minimaxir wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> btw if I quit on Feb 1, I'm walking away from half a million dollars in stock. This has some serious monetary consequences for me. https://twitter.com/lizthegrey/status/1067469950594486272

I’m not saying anyone should walk away from money. But the same people who want Google to walk away from the world’s largest country aren’t willing to walk away from thier stock but expect Google executives to make financial choices for moral reason.

I don't think walking away from all your stock vs. a company walking away from a deal that would account for a small fraction of its profits is a fair comparison.

A more fair comparison would be asking if employees would be willing to have their stock decrease in value 10% in exchange for their company being more moral. I expect many employees would take such an exchange, although not all.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#616

Post by ocdtrekkie »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #373
ben_jones wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point 4: the new people come in with knowledge of the walk out, which can cause all kinds of secondary reactions. If this goes through every new google employee will have something to think about during the HR feel good antics.

I think you maybe are now ignoring the number of H1B / Visa / or otherwise applicants happy to take a lucrative job that don't give 1/2 a damn about any of that. My post about SCALE was apparently too hard to understand. There is a big sea of programmers that would be happy to work for Google censorship or not. If you want to argue the cost of replacing people - I'd argue the cost of paying people who won't do the jo…

Allegedly the secret to Google's success is hiring (and more importantly, retaining) the best of the best. Presumably Dragonfly work can be done by any H1B, but all the people who no longer want to work at Google would impact plenty of other projects.

There's a difference between your coder who can build you a chat app and a coder who can keep you on the bleeding edge of innovation. In theory.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#617

Post by throwawaysea »

The number of participants in these efforts are so small and unrepresentative, to a point where it is not material and these companies should not change their direction. It is unclear to me why the media gives these stories so much attention. I have to think it starts with these activists secretly working with 1-2 journalists who are similarly politically-motivated, which then leads to the story being given prominence on a couple media outlets. And from there it makes the rounds, even though it is an undeserved amplification of a non-story.

There are FAR more employees who either do not share these same views or are OK with the company pursuing its own profit-maximizing agenda independent of employees' personal political views. For example with workers not willing to build image recognition algorithms that assist/augment the capabilities of joystick-drone-operators, I bet there are a much larger number that are totally willing to work on it, and they are signaling that by not participating in employee activism even when it is socially/professionally safe to do so.

As for the others who are not just indifferent but are for the company's actions in pursuing new opportunities - they're just not screaming about it due to the intolerance exhibited by far-left progressives at these companies, especially with all the purposeful/malicious leaking,the Twitter outrage machine, and other vicious tactics used by the intolerant activists. And as a left progressive, I think that sort of behavior undermines all of us, and should not be tolerated.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#618

Post by tspike »

throwawaysea wrote: post #617

The number of participants in these efforts are so small and unrepresentative, to a point where it is not material and these companies should not change their direction. It is unclear to me why the media gives these stories so much attention. I have to think it starts with these activists secretly working with 1-2 journalists who are similarly politically-motivated, which then leads to the story being given prominenc…

At what point do you consider it acceptable to speak out against something you consider ethically wrong?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#619

Post by omegaworks »

dragonwriter wrote: post #539
omegaworks wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quibbling over status is an interesting fallout of the same right-wing nationalist rhetoric. You're right though. He was a Saudi citizen, US resident on an O Visa with US citizen children on his way to a green card[1]. Should we not care about his murder as much then? 1. https://qz.com/1428499/jamal-khashoggi-what-trump-owes-khash...

> Should we not care about his murder as much then? Actually, the correction was so that people wouldn't continue making the mistake, not because his citizenship status is a critical point. The error is a distraction from the main point that is avoidable in the future.

>The error is a distraction from the main point that is avoidable in the future.

Point taken. The intricacies of status continue to wonder and delight. :)

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#620

Post by yholio »

bduerst wrote: post #557
Puer wrote: post #38

I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…

Would you still work for Amazon? Microsoft? Apple? Facebook? Because they are actually in China and give concessions to the government.

The idea that a foreign corporation has a duty to break Chinese law with regards to web filtering is very problematic, if that's what you mean by "give concessions to the government". How far should such a corporation go with breaking the law, is tax evasion against the Chinese state morally acceptable, since those taxes might be used for oppression?

We should recognize here a very thin line between respecting the Chinese law and actively collaborating to subvert human rights - because the law is defined by an authoritarian regime with a long history of human right abuses.

That being said, surely you cannot change Chinese law from outside China, and if respecting it's current iteration is not in itself an unacceptable violation of human rights, it stands to reason that expanding in China at least forces the government to stick to it's own laws under the threat of a public exit and protest if unlawful pressures are made. It puts ethical companies in a position where they can nudge the Chinese towards ethical behavior - or at least very publicly denounce unethical demands.

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