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China Blocks WhatsApp

nytimes.com

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Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#611

Post by seppin »

JamesBarney wrote: post #468
AmIFirstToThink wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's supposed to offend them? how? What makes you think Chinese are after making others follow them? I think they are pretty happy with the way things are now. Do you think that's what we are after? Making others emulate us? That sounds racist to me.

The poster he's responding to says that China can become a or the global cultural leader of the world. And to achieve this specific status they do need others to follow them culturally. If no one outside of China is wearing Chinese clothes, watching Chinese movies, or listening to Chinese music, then they can't be considered a cultural globalization leader.

or, given the network effort of English as the global language of tourism, science, etc. the would need to create billions of new Chinese speakers. Give how different and difficult it is, I really don't see that happening.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#612

Post by eyeareque »

vim_wannabe wrote: post #107
eyeareque wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this way too until I went to china. The current batch of US apps are also copies of earlier apps. Remember chatting on bbses? IRC, ICQ, etc? China doesn’t need western internet companies, they have a quarter of the world’s population. Can you blame them for wanting to promote home grown apps to build wealth within their country? Also, they like control, why would you let an foreigner end to end encryp…

The elite still probably likes to use iDevices themselves. Once they get some other luxury brands going its time for the concessions.

Could be yeah. But it really makes me wonder. I can’t see china allowing a messaging platform in their country that doesn’t have a way to monitor everything.

Maybe the fact that iPhones are all made in china allow them, for the time being.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#613

Post by eyeareque »

FabHK wrote: post #283
jzl wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m surprised iMessage worked for me while I was there. I wonder what consessions Apple had to give for that? From the article: 'Other services provided by American technology companies are available in mainland China. The country tolerates Microsoft’s Skype service for phone calls, which does not provide end-to-end encryption and as a result is easier for governments to monitor. Beijing also allows Apple’s FaceTime…

Sorry, but is there any evidence that iMessage or FaceTime has been MITMed? In China or elsewhere? (I wonder whether it's tolerated because of Apple's small market share...)

There is no eivdence that I know of. If Apple suddenly signed every message with a third key (a Chinese gov key) how would people know? Maybe a jail broken phone could detect this.. but only if the third key was added. They could do it to specific people and no one would know until it happened. I have no proof of this, only guessing what could happen.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#614

Post by dreamfactored »

uptownfunk wrote: post #437
dreamfactored wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind, let alone infrastructure. 2. You seem to assume the bulk of innovation is going to be happening outside China and that blocking consumer access to Western platforms would somehow inhibit a flow of information to China. I'd disagree on both counts. The Chinese government is act…

This has little to do with China and innovation. The problem is mostly economical. China probably wants Chinese clones, clones that are incredibly valuable and based in China. All the wealth generated therefrom stays in China. That's it, it's likely an economical manipulation. And frankly, from an economical standpoint, well-played. (Hope I don't get downvoted to hell!)

The clone theory was correct while China was a low wage economy. But it has ceased to be the case quite recently (obviously the future is not evenly distributed, particularly in such a diverse and rapidly expanding economy - so you will still see copying for years to come but this doesn't represent the strategic direction). As I've pointed out elsewhere, China in fact has no option but to compete via design and innovation, just as the US, Japan, and Korea have done during their economic developments. 'Made in Japan' for example used to be the signifier of a cheap shitty knockoff - that seems extraordinary to most millennials today.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#615

Post by dreamfactored »

westiseast wrote: post #523
andy_ppp wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the lack of reciprocal tariffs introduced by the US or are there some I don’t know of? This is probably the economic equivalent of banning say mobile phones or some other large and important sector.

I think a lot of people feel the same way and it somewhat feeds into the Trump phenomenon. For years the thinking has been that China is liberalizing, and it will eventually open up and that reciprocal sanctions or tariffs will spark unnecessary protectionism and encourage China to reverse direction. A lot of people now, after 20-30 years of similar behaviour, believe that China was just gaming the system all along a…

I think it's a case of wage normalisation. The salary and cost of living differentials between the West and Asia are narrowing incredibly fast. That's going to cause a lot of dissent amongst Western populations, particularly as those downward wage pressures are creating the kind of insecurities and job competition that the wild east is long accustomed to. The real consequence of fluid global trade is a global normalisation of living standards - you could say the first world is finally sharing and taking a hit in return for smartphones and cheap clothing.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#616

Post by dreamfactored »

imron wrote: post #521
dreamfactored wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind, let alone infrastructure. 2. You seem to assume the bulk of innovation is going to be happening outside China and that blocking consumer access to Western platforms would somehow inhibit a flow of information to China. I'd disagree on both counts. The Chinese government is act…

> Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind Foreigners can set up businesses - see for example, the WFOE [0]. There are restrictions however for certain fields and business activities (infrastructure being one), so while foreigners can't just set up any company, they certainly can set up some companies if they like. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_Foreign-Owned_Enterpris...

Thanks that's very helpful actually as I may well be doing this in future. My experience was from being told by Chinese that it was JV all the way and with O'Reilly having to use 3rd parties but thinking about it publishing would obviously be sensitive...

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#617

Post by Iv »

ttflee wrote: post #592
Iv wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. Hitting VPNs, however, is challenging a status-quo: before that they were tolerating that tech-savvy users could access internet outside China. It could be believed that they would let the people with enough of a legitimate reasonto pay for it access the outside. I have the impression that there are more channels for official complaints than we often believe as westerners. I think that they will receive critici…

The impact of so-called tech savvy users is exaggerated. Criticism from IT sector would be put out no harder than that in other cases. Organized commune hardly exists after so many years since the repression in 1989 and IT companies must be queuing in line to help out or the censorship would not be as effective as it is seen by now.

The criticism will more be in the form of "this thing impaired our economic goals and is at odds with this item in the five years plan"

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#618

Post by miopa »

pertymcpert wrote: post #533
twelvechairs wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then why take the trouble of blocking something so small and unimportant? ;) China would rather be in control of tracking/surveillance internally, rather than let it be done by foreign companies and nations. Thats all

WhatsApp doesn't do surveillance, it's end to end encrypted. Foreign surveillance is not the reason they block these services and you know it.

WhatsApp knows your contacts and when are you talking with whom. Also their closed source app has access to most of your phone.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#619

Post by chaostheory »

IncRnd wrote: post #581
chaostheory wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the comment says China WILL lose its current momentum for innovation. It’s a prediction of the future It’s pretty evident China fears outside competition when they block competitors from entering their market. They have no confidence in their home grown companies surviving contrary to hard evidence

You assume facts not in evidence and write as if your biases are evident as the truth. China has a history of blocking outside influence in order to control the populace, so fear of competition with apps may not be the motivation.

Chinese protectionism isn't new and it isn't limited to apps. There's been more than enough written on the subject.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#620

Post by swfsql »

This is just wealth destruction. Government intervention will create an artificial higher demand for those services. Maybe the same developers would be building something else that THEY would believe would be about more interesting or profitable.

So chinese will miss those OTHER OPPORTUNITIES to innovate (even if still innovates, it could be "even better"), or other opportunities to "copy cat" other services. The question is: who should decide whats done and whats not done? The consumer or the government?

Read Bastiat. It's easy and obvious to point at something that's being built by government or (indirectly) by the government intervention. The hard part, that needs some economics stretching, is to wonder about the invisible, non-existing projects that actually are never felt missed.

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