how is this hacker talk? can someone PLEASE talk about hacking ffs?!
This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
611–620 of 707 posts
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#612i thought this was hacker talk? can someone PLEASE talk about hacking ffs?!
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#613Earlier quoted context omitted.
At this point, I realize you're trolling, but in the interest of anyone else reading I feel it's appropriate to reply. I'm someone who pretty universally supports the rights of others to be themselves, however that might be, and be treated with respect as a human being. That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-min…
> it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not. How do you feel about your HR department and their anti-discrimination and harassment policies? :) You get more protections from harassment in the workplace than students get on campus. Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the exti…
> Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the extinction of tolerance itself.
I would argue that this is an unverified and overblown statement. In fact, I don't even see why this would eventually lead itself to be true, unless you already consider bigotry and hatred to be the majority norm in a very pervasive sense. I could write more on the matter, but others have done some considerable study on the matter [1]. I would say that overall being tolerant of intolerance is a good thing, because these people naturally exclude themselves from social structures and circles of power where they are expected to maintain a leadership role towards those they are bigoted against. Further, by integrating intolerant people with those of us who are tolerant, there is more chance for them to learn why their hatred may be misplaced, and for us to learn where the boundaries of our own personal expression should be.
Thinking merely that we must "stamp out all hatred" is in fact a form of hatred in itself. You can't fight fire with fire here.
[1] http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/09/23/how-marcuse-made-toda...
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#614It doesn't take long watching social media trending tags - particularly on Twitter to notice that there is definitely a trend of this kind of sentiment among the demographic of the social media outlets. While the article may (or may not be, I really have no idea) a fabrication, my observation is that the sentiment towards playing the victim and labeling others as haters and bigots is extensive. Being brought up Chris…
What happened to just treating others as you wish to be treated in return? You just made me feel bad about all the times I wasn't empathetic. Not really, but witness how deeply ingrained our ability to use and feel guilt is.
LOL, I actually didn't say that as a thinly veiled guilt trip... it was a genuine question... what happened to it? Where did this notion fall by the wayside and get replaced with a more narcissistic attitude that appears to be more prevalent now?
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#615Earlier quoted context omitted.
At this point, I realize you're trolling, but in the interest of anyone else reading I feel it's appropriate to reply. I'm someone who pretty universally supports the rights of others to be themselves, however that might be, and be treated with respect as a human being. That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-min…
> it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not. How do you feel about your HR department and their anti-discrimination and harassment policies? :) You get more protections from harassment in the workplace than students get on campus. Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the exti…
I strongly suspect your definition of "harass" borders on what I would call academic discourse.
A university and a office are two very distinct environments. University is designed to create an environment for learning, growing, debating, being challenged in ones preconceived notions, and in some ways, it's also a crucible to help prepare young adults to enter society as productive members.
To apply the same standards of a workplace to an academic institution is ridiculous. In fact, in many ways we want workplaces to become more like university. It's another example of the friction and the push back against efforts to sterilize the workplace (trying to prevent it becoming the next "safe space").
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#616Earlier quoted context omitted.
At this point, I realize you're trolling, but in the interest of anyone else reading I feel it's appropriate to reply. I'm someone who pretty universally supports the rights of others to be themselves, however that might be, and be treated with respect as a human being. That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-min…
> it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not. How do you feel about your HR department and their anti-discrimination and harassment policies? :) You get more protections from harassment in the workplace than students get on campus. Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the exti…
I'll reply to this, but no further.
Bigotry is a belief structure. Discrimination and harassment are actions, which may or may not be based in bigotry. I am in no way advocating that it is okay to discriminate against or harass people based on their identity. Speech can be an action, but it can also just be speech. It's not a simple line, but I think it's well defined in the law and well understood in society the difference between a statement of opinion, which may or may not be bigoted, and harassment.
Also, I'd like to point out that you're awfully focused on my statements around bigotry. Bigotry is a consequence of humanity, but it's also something that can be changed through education and discussion. The very reason why it's important to protect dissenting speech, is because it's a protection for society against bigotry. The movement that's currently happening around "safe spaces" is not merely a reaction to bigotry, it's also a reaction to dissenting opinions, ignoring the latter for the former because the former makes an easy target to argue against due to its inappropriateness and unpopularity does not change the facts of the matter.
I think part of our misunderstanding is that we disagree on what is entailed in a "discussion" and what is entailed in the term "safe space". To me, a discussion must have, among other things, diversity of thought or position. This implies that there will be dissent. In the usage of the term "safe space" that I've experienced, dissent was not allowed, in fact it was in some cases violently rejected. If there is no room for dissent, then what exists within is not a discussion, it's a group affirmation. You do not walk away from a group affirmation having learned anything, although it might make you feel better about yourself. A discussion provides the possibility of learning something, gaining awareness of other viewpoints, understanding of someone who is different than you, and perhaps the possibility of convincing someone else to change their viewpoint to share yours.
On a university campus in a shared space, I'd very much hope that any discussion that occurs about any topic, but especially topics of politics and social mores has room for dissent. For instance, I'd hope that my dissenting opinion regarding the existence or establishment of "safe spaces" would be welcome, if not applauded in a discussion about identity politics on a university campus. At the same time, if I were on said campus and I heard someone expressing a grossly bigoted opinion, such as something which is blatantly racist or sexist, I would confront them and provide them my dissenting viewpoint to their bigotry and hope that it were welcomed, if not embraced by the person who I was having the disagreement with. University life is supposed to be about having your viewpoints that you grew up with challenged, meeting new people who are different than you, finding out about the vast diversity of opinions and thought that exists in the world, and opening your mind to the possibilities that life holds. When we use social means to censure people and demand the cessation of dissent in the name of not causing offense, we trade away the possibility of teaching students about the vast possibilities of the world in favor of not rocking the boat.
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#617It doesn't take long watching social media trending tags - particularly on Twitter to notice that there is definitely a trend of this kind of sentiment among the demographic of the social media outlets. While the article may (or may not be, I really have no idea) a fabrication, my observation is that the sentiment towards playing the victim and labeling others as haters and bigots is extensive. Being brought up Chris…
> What happened to just treating others as you wish to be treated in return? Ironically (in the context of the paragraph preceding that quote), that is a characteristically Christian notion.
There are many things that are supposedly characteristically Christian, in the sense of that being that's what's preached by Christianity but are clearly not practiced by large swathes of people who identify themselves as belonging to that religion.
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#618Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I love that I just got down-voted for coming out to the community as both queer and victim of sexual assault! Do you really think that's why you were downvoted?
I mean, it's either that or people who really really hate the idea of someone getting their mental health together with useful tools like safe spaces and trigger words :)
I didn't downvote, but accusing the entire community of deep rooted misogyny might have something to do with it?
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#619Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting, I have noticed the same at my university and frankly I don't see the point of those jobs. All they do is raise tuition.
I suspect that there are two points to those jobs. The not-really-stated point is that they keep the university from being sued for some student having bad judgment, by not letting the students have any judgment. The absolutely-not-stated point is that somebody got a cushy, well-paying job.
I don't know the legal configuration of other states, but in SUNY, the SUNY administration is not liable for action or inaction on the part of student government.
Sadly, the SUNY administration is largely not liable for action or inaction on the part of state officials either, who, in my experience, make worse decisions than students or faculty 100% of the time.
(As some folks here already know,) I sued SUNY after being kicked out of school in an act of unambiguous political retaliation, and although I won an injunction, forcing my reinstatement, the state officials involved were granted complete immunity from suit.
These events are documents in a documentary, Campus Coup:
Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University
#620Earlier quoted context omitted.
You've mistaken discussion in general—which encompasses a fairly broad range of exchanges—with a particularly narrow subset that is characterized by clearly defined and opposing positions, along with acceptance of adversarial engagement from "both sides" of the issue. There's a time and a place for that, to be sure, but there are many more cases in which the forceful imposition of a binary outlook has effects that ar…
I would suggest that the most people would have a decent chance of having non-combative discussion; however, the construction of the spaces tends to throw out those folks along with the more toxic and dedicated trolls and harassers. Moreover, even attempts at polite discussion are often dismissed as sealioning or whatnot--and thus, by being hypersensitive and assuming a victim stance, truly productive and civil disco…
I think this was very well said (better than my reply) and I'm happy for it to be my first use of the "vouch" feature.