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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#601

Post by tpm »

teiferer wrote: post #223
philipallstar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy European unity works well in a world of mostly-stable populations. Having mass migrations from large, relatively empty countries, to pretty full ones, is going to make the full ones increasingly expensive to make housing for, to power, and to water.

> mass migrations > pretty full ones C'mon, why parrot this nonsense? There are no "mass migrations" and neither the European countries nor the US are "full". Yes the Europeans screwed up real integration across the board, but nobody is really working on fixing that. Easier to just claim to be full and the immigrants are causing higher crime rates so no more people in but oh demographics, please everybody make more b…

Xenophobia is on the rise across the board with the rising unequality and an alliance between extreme-right elements of the society and the wealthy class that wants to use them to destroy democratic institutions and take over the power. Rationally with the ageing population we actually need managed mass migration but instead get managed mass hate and unmanaged migration.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#602

Post by prmoustache »

bsimpson wrote: post #261
arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

I was a teenager when 9/11 happened. Until that point, I thought wars were a stupid thing that humanity realized were stupid and stopped doing.

There hasn't been a year, or even week without a war. How could you have thought that wars didn't exist?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#605

Post by tpm »

ericmay wrote: post #200
Barrin92 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These kinds of morally-superior, we'll show them, type of attitudes This is a strange framing that itself usually comes from a standpoint of moral superiority. When you sign agreements with a governing body, like the EU on freedom of movement, and you break that agreement then there's consequences. And I don't mean that in an underhanded agressive way, but just literally you've broken the terms you had negotiated. T…

> This is a strange framing that itself usually comes from a standpoint of moral superiority. When you sign agreements with a governing body, like the EU on freedom of movement, and you break that agreement then there's consequences. And I don't mean that in an underhanded agressive way, but just literally you've broken the terms you had negotiated. I don't think so. Even in the case where the Swiss or UK are breakin…

The EU didn't break any agreement.

> the Swiss are to be the recipient of some draconian action "we'll show them"

It's quite clear that the EU-Swiss agreements were negotiated as a whole and one side just can't suddenly pick parts of it that it will reject.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#606

Post by epolanski »

dmitrygr wrote: post #496
epolanski wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the full ones? Working age population is decreasing in Europe. It's only really major cities that suffer under development, and even among them it's just some, not the majority. And despite all the bitching, even extra-EU immigrants are a huge resource for most European countries. In Italy e.g. extra-EU immigrants contribute to 14% of taxes and receive less than 2% of benefits, as many of them come here as…

> In Germany extra-EU immigrants are on average net contributors to welfare state too. All the data I find shows them contributing less than natives, and even MORE less if corrected for age. https://www.econstor.eu/handle/10419/232517

https://euromod-web.jrc.ec.europa.eu/research/publications/d...

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#607

Post by jeffrallen »

FabCH wrote: post #126

One interesting point for me is that, IMHO, the propaganda on the „no“ side wad _abysmal_. The counter arguments are awful and they are presented awfully and not even in such high quantity as you would expect. I think it has a good chance of passing just because of that. And then political shitf***y will begin with „we don’t know how to turn this into law!“, which is not good for the basis of democracy…

> don't know how to turn this into law

For one time, we can be grateful that the breakdown in direct democracy is gonna save us from an own goal.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#608

Post by jeffrallen »

ekelsen wrote: post #510

What would they do if the natural birthrate were to tip it over the threshold? (Perhaps unlikely at current birthrates, but given that laws last long times, perhaps worth considering?)

The initiative does not mention what. Because the initiative's sponsor are anti-migration.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#609

Post by izacus »

noncoml wrote: post #459
izacus wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, first UK had to vote for their own anti immigration nonsense, then US tried out their MAGA winning and now it's time for Switzerland to follow in their footsteps and make their country great again with SVP at the helm. After all, this time it HAS to go better right?

It didn't work out that well for UK the first time. So now they are trying a second time. By voting for the guy that promised he would solve it the first time. This time he really means it.

Yes, my point exactly. This is a proposal of Swiss MAGA wannabes with the same disregard for consequences as Brexit and MAGA parties showed elsewhere.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#610

Post by jason-johnson »

Argonaut998 wrote: post #106
soco wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is an utterly meaningless statistic It's very meaningful, when the main argument is population overcrowding.

The entire human population can fit within Los Angelas. It’s not a good metric in general. Pressure on public services, resources and housing is far more useful

The entire human population could stand there: each person would have roughly 1.5 to 5.4 square feet of space—less than the size of a single chair. If you actually did get all of humanity in LA it would instantly break out in war.
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