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German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

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Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#601

Post by xg15 »

RandomLensman wrote: post #451
vimbtw wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the purpose is to have the law and all the paperwork set up as a precaution for the future. Sure, right now it’s all voluntary and just rubber stamping, but if in the future they need to do something like Ukraine and lock down travel for military aged men, it’s much easier to flip a switch and start denying travel permits rather than having to set up and fund an entirely new system for requiring travel…

If it were to get closer to war (i.e., Spannungsfall, let alone the Verteidigungsfall) a set of laws would unlock that allow control of various areas of life and the economy anyway.

Interestingly, the travel permit requirement already existed in law before, but it was tied to the Spannungsfall/Verteidigungsfall conditions.

This new law removed this condition and preemptively "activated" the requirement even before the Spannungsfall was declared.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#602

Post by guerrilla »

raffael_de wrote: post #597
guerrilla wrote: post #594

Nobody's going to bring up the sexism? I thought feminism was for equality. Why then no complains of not having equal responsibility here? Just like when Ukraine did this, nobody cared. No complaints in the media at all. They always want more women in the offices too, never in the coal mines.

Also Curds and Israelis prove that women can very well be full on soldiers.

Kurds* yes and Sweden as well. I agree, it's not like people are running around swinging broadswords, maces and war axes anymore. Anyone without a disability can run and pull a trigger or do all those technical jobs.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#603

Post by croes »

guerrilla wrote: post #594

Nobody's going to bring up the sexism? I thought feminism was for equality. Why then no complains of not having equal responsibility here? Just like when Ukraine did this, nobody cared. No complaints in the media at all. They always want more women in the offices too, never in the coal mines.

In 2006, the Federal Administrative Court justified the absence of compulsory military service for women in a ruling, citing, among other reasons, that women face greater burdens in the domestic sphere than men and that this alone would justify their exemption from military service obligations. So military service is seen as a service like healthcare and care services where women already do most of the work, mostly privately and unpaid.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#604

Post by guerrilla »

croes wrote: post #603
guerrilla wrote: post #594

Nobody's going to bring up the sexism? I thought feminism was for equality. Why then no complains of not having equal responsibility here? Just like when Ukraine did this, nobody cared. No complaints in the media at all. They always want more women in the offices too, never in the coal mines.

In 2006, the Federal Administrative Court justified the absence of compulsory military service for women in a ruling, citing, among other reasons, that women face greater burdens in the domestic sphere than men and that this alone would justify their exemption from military service obligations. So military service is seen as a service like healthcare and care services where women already do most of the work, mostly p…

> unpaid

Right, completely unpaid, which is why most women are homeless and starving on the street.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#606

Post by dranudin »

HappyPanacea wrote: post #421
Ylpertnodi wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet the vast majority of combat veterarans are very anti-war.

Which combat veterans?

My grandpa (ww2) was one of them. He helped my father dodge the draft, when he was supposed to go to military service.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#607

Post by croes »

nicbou wrote: post #574

I have been living in Germany for 11 years and qualify for citizenship. This is exactly the kind of thing that has stopped me. If this country goes to war, I'm out. My presence here has always been transactional when it benefited Germany. It will stay transactional when it benefits me.

There is a difference between military service and going to war.

Only volunteers can be send outside Germany, everyone else stays in Germany for defense

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#608

Post by layer8 »

raffael_de wrote: post #592
layer8 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law was the status quo from the 1950s up to 2011. This is reverting to that era, for good reasons, given the state of the world.

no, it wasn't. old law only when defense situation. new law even when no defense situation (like right now).

"When defense situation" was only from 2011 on: https://www.buzer.de/gesetz/5521/al28643-0.htm.

See also the complete version from 2008 here: https://www.bgbl.de/xaver/bgbl/text.xav?SID=&tf=xaver.compon...

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#609

Post by calf »

layer8 wrote: post #394
bilsbie wrote: post #221

“ Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.” - Universal Declaration of Human Rights https://www.ohchr.org/en/human-rights/universal-declaration/...

And "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person." Military service also serves the purpose to defend that right when the country is attacked. Rights aren't absolute, they have to be traded off against each other.

Rights are morally absolute, and the cynical insistence that they must be traded off is both fallacious and intellectually hypocritical. You want certain weaker rights, then just admit it, don't be disingenuous about it.

Re: German men 18-45 need military permit for extended stays abroad

#610

Post by signatoremo »

frodowtf2 wrote: post #429
layer8 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person." Military service also serves the purpose to defend that right when the country is attacked. Rights aren't absolute, they have to be traded off against each other.

Military service in the west is not for defence. Irak, Iran, Syria, Vietnam...

Defense doesn't mean not to start a war. Think about how Vietnam justified their invasion of Cambodia in 1978, or how China started the war with Vietnam the following year, or how Turkey entered Syria, how Pakistan fought the Taliban recently, and of course what Russia did in Ukraine, 2014 and 2022.

Wars are messy and have always been. Military actions are to be decided by the governments. Those who have resources are more willingly to use it, west or east.

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