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Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#601

Post by frumplestlatz »

allreduce wrote: post #599
frumplestlatz wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s reverse this. Why should physical competition be classified based on sociological conceptions around gender?

The classification has always been based on sociological conceptions and is still based on such after this change. There have always been outliers who are sociologically women, but don't have the biological makeup most women have. That the criteria for admission are altered now to exclude some of them is motivated by anti-trans politics. Usually such rule changes are made when it becomes obvious that the old rules ca…

You’re claiming female sports categories were not biologically rooted classifications?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#602

Post by dekhn »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #395
Ralfp wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that due to their education and research those people may know more on the subject than you do? Regret rates for transition remain notoriously low (within 2%) with main reasons for regret stated to be transitioning too late or environmental lack of acceptance or support. Besides, despite some orgs claiming there is a "transgender trend", we are just not seeing this in the data.

That sounds like appeal to authority, it is classified as a fallacy.

it's only a fallacy in purely logical arguments. Appeal to authority makes sense in medical, scientific, engineering, and other contexts when the arguments necessarily depend on ambiguous data and subjective conclusions.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#603

Post by bit-anarchist »

fourseventy wrote: post #560
fwip wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, generally you get better in your sport in the 4-5 years you're in college. She was already putting up crazy numbers as a freshman on the men's team. From Wikipedia: > Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017. During her freshman year, Thomas recorded a time of eight minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time…

[flagged]

Holy bad faith. OP didn't say Thomas's improved ranking is simply due to "people naturally improving overtime", but because she already was already rising, even between other men. Could you at least argue that point?

Also, if that's a "far left ideology rabbit hole" (it isn't even ideological), I have to ponder what the hell you think is a "right ideology", nevermind "far right ideology".

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#604

Post by [deleted] »

fourseventy wrote: post #556
JK-Swizzle wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding to this: If you do not want to reference the current gender, you can also use "Assigned Female at Birth" (AFAB), or "Assigned Male at Birth" (AMAB). This is useful when clarifying terms, when you do not know the persons identity, or when discussing groups based on the factory default settings.

A female or male is not 'assigned' anything. Just because you are confused about biological reality doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[deleted]

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#605

Post by whatever1 »

zahlman wrote: post #489
whatever1 wrote: post #55

Men who weigh 100kg are also banned from participating in the 63kg weightlifting category. So what? There are physical traits that offer advantages in sports. We bucketize so that we see more interesting competitions (aka a 120kg weightlifter would completely dominate all of the smaller folks, every single time, so what's the point of competing ).

Sure. Meanwhile, men in the 63kg powerlifting class have a higher record total than even superheavyweight women: https://worldpowerlifting.com/records/womens-world-records/ https://worldpowerlifting.com/records/mens-world-records/

I don’t see where we disagree. It is exactly why we have different buckets for men and women. Otherwise why would ever a woman try to compete in weightlifting?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#606

Post by kelipso »

dangus wrote: post #591
qingcharles wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the rare problems where there exists no good solution to the issue. Even without taking transfem athletes into consideration, there still remains a problem for women's sports in that sex (not gender) is not fully black and white, male and female, and some high-performing female athletes show signs of intersex, which has caused this entire hysteria about checking for penises. How do you ever come up wit…

It seems like we are creatively bankrupt if we can’t think of any solution. I think many of us could think of a good solution in literally seconds. And there’s a really good argument that a solution isn’t actually needed. Does the NBA need a solution for Steph Curry being the best 3 point shooter of all time and dominating his competition? Did the NFL need a solution for Tom Brady winning the Super Bowl 30% of the se…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2016_Summer_O...

See all three medalists.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#607

Post by bluefirebrand »

hananova wrote: post #180
bluefirebrand wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing them to cis men is a red herring, they aren't competing again cis men Are they stronger than cis women?

No, they’re not. Not after about a year of HRT.

Everything I'm reading says 3-5 years of HRT, not a year

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#608

Post by locopati »

aucisson_masque wrote: post #578
callistocodes wrote: post #334

My two cents as a transfem athlete: The attention this topic receives is disproportionate considering how rare we are, especially close to the Olympics level. Most of us do sports for fun/friends and don’t care how they rank us, but would be sad to be banned. There might be more “biological advantage” nuance with people just starting their transition, but by this many years in it feels silly. I registered as a man fo…

No one cares at amateur levels but we are speaking of the Olympic. I'm all for transgender to do sport, have fun and even compete but Olympic games are about who is the best of the world. If you chose to identify as another sex, you can accept to give up on competing at the highest of the highest level. It's not like a big sacrifice.

at the highest levels are the most rigorous standards and testing. this is where it makes the most sense to allow trans athletes to. compete. trans women who have been on hormone replacement do not have an advantage over cis women. this is discrimination plain and simple and creates an atmosphere of misunderstanding, mistrust, and misinformation towards trans people (which incidentally also affects non-gender-conforming cis women).

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#609

Post by allreduce »

frumplestlatz wrote: post #601
allreduce wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification has always been based on sociological conceptions and is still based on such after this change. There have always been outliers who are sociologically women, but don't have the biological makeup most women have. That the criteria for admission are altered now to exclude some of them is motivated by anti-trans politics. Usually such rule changes are made when it becomes obvious that the old rules ca…

You’re claiming female sports categories were not biologically rooted classifications?

I'm claiming that there were always women with outlier biology which is not at all easy to classify and not obvious at a glance.

People caring about this issue in sports now and changing the objective admission criteria to exclude them is a political phenomenon more than anything else.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#610

Post by appreciatorBus »

tensor wrote: post #90
hervature wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am going to try to keep my response apolitical to try to avoid fanning a culture war. That Wiki is the exact reason we are in this situation because we are bringing up points for 1 in 20000 or 0.005% of the population. Any system designed around 0.005% edge cases is going to be so complex that it is functionally impossible to do in practice. That is why one side says the solution is "obvious" because we have a simp…

Except I proposed a solution, which you ignored (I'm assuming here that I'm your "opposing side".) Also, there are a significant number of these sorts of arguments in high-level sports, probably precisely because these "0.1%" cases are exactly the ones that result in exceptional ability relative to norms. It's also curious that there is such obsession about naturally occurring genetic outliers with respect to females…

> naturally occurring genetic outliers among men unrelated to gender

This is just not true. Many sports are categorized by weight for the most obvious example.

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