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We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

theguardian.com

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Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#601

Post by ljsprague »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #595
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tribes don't reproduce; people do.

Tribes reproduce as the people who make up the tribe reproduce. Values reproduce as the people who hold them reproduce, plus as others adopt those values, minus as those who hold those values drop them. But the US was supposed to be a country where values mattered more than tribe. "We hold these truths to be self evident", and all that, and if you accepted the values, you belonged. That was an imperfect ideal, but it…

Are we ever allowed to stop being a "values country" and just be a normal one? Or are we at least allowed to change our values? Are we allowed to make that decision for ourselves?

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#602

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ljsprague wrote: post #601
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tribes reproduce as the people who make up the tribe reproduce. Values reproduce as the people who hold them reproduce, plus as others adopt those values, minus as those who hold those values drop them. But the US was supposed to be a country where values mattered more than tribe. "We hold these truths to be self evident", and all that, and if you accepted the values, you belonged. That was an imperfect ideal, but it…

Are we ever allowed to stop being a "values country" and just be a normal one? Or are we at least allowed to change our values? Are we allowed to make that decision for ourselves?

If you want to change values like "equal rights" and "rule of law", you may be able to do so, but you probably have to amend the constitution to do it.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#603

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

ljsprague wrote: post #601
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tribes reproduce as the people who make up the tribe reproduce. Values reproduce as the people who hold them reproduce, plus as others adopt those values, minus as those who hold those values drop them. But the US was supposed to be a country where values mattered more than tribe. "We hold these truths to be self evident", and all that, and if you accepted the values, you belonged. That was an imperfect ideal, but it…

Are we ever allowed to stop being a "values country" and just be a normal one? Or are we at least allowed to change our values? Are we allowed to make that decision for ourselves?

A country based on shared values is normal.

And we are of course allowed to change that, if that is what the people want, but a minority should not make that decision on behalf of the whole.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#604

Post by mbrumlow »

shiroiuma wrote: post #355
mbrumlow wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment seems crazy to me. Chinas political stance more closely resembles right-wing policies than left leaning ones. All the xenophobic notions you are talking about china has in spades. I am not saying China is not doing things right here will lead to your described outcome, what I am saying you conflation with western politics is completely out of this world, and is a excellent example of why the outcome you…

Why do you think right-wing policies are intrinsically tied to anti-science sentiment? Yes, politically China does look very right-wing with some of their policies (like those trying to push women to have babies), despite the "communism" moniker. However, unlike the US, they are very pro-science and they put their money where their mouth is.

You’re arguing against a position I never took.

I didn’t say right-wing policies are inherently anti-science. I said your contrast makes no sense. You’re blaming Western decline on xenophobia and far-right politics, but China has strong nationalism, social conservatism, demographic engineering, speech controls, and limited immigration. All things typically associated with the political tendencies you are criticizing.

So which is it?

If nationalism and social conservatism are corrosive to long-term success, then China shouldn’t be your example of strategic competence. If those traits aren’t inherently corrosive, then maybe "far-right politics" isn’t the explanatory variable you think it is.

You can’t simultaneously argue that right-wing xenophobia is sinking the West while praising a country that institutionalizes many of those same tendencies.

If your actual claim is about state capacity and science investment, then say that. But don’t smuggle in partisan framing as the cause of decline and then retreat to "pro-science funding" when the comparison falls apart.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#605

Post by shiroiuma »

cpursley wrote: post #481
p-e-w wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has a global reputational problem that will take decades to fix. The US has a global reputational advantage that will take decades to fall behind China, regardless of what any US administration does. Nobody sane is going to believe rhetoric claiming that the US is somehow worse than a country that keeps 1.5 million people in concentration camps, and where people work 70 hours per week, no matter how many times…

What nonsense. The "rest of the world" understands the message loud and clear: China shows up to do business. America shows up to bomb. It's a pretty reasonable choice. Anyways, people now ant a BYD, not a Chevy - because its a better car.

I can't think of any time in the last 50 years when anyone outside of the US actually wanted a Chevy, aside from a rare person who wanted a Corvette maybe.

The car that's actually been super-popular outside its own national borders for a long time now is the Toyota, not anything from the US. BYD is indeed changing this.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#606

Post by shiroiuma »

mbrumlow wrote: post #604
shiroiuma wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think right-wing policies are intrinsically tied to anti-science sentiment? Yes, politically China does look very right-wing with some of their policies (like those trying to push women to have babies), despite the "communism" moniker. However, unlike the US, they are very pro-science and they put their money where their mouth is.

You’re arguing against a position I never took. I didn’t say right-wing policies are inherently anti-science. I said your contrast makes no sense. You’re blaming Western decline on xenophobia and far-right politics, but China has strong nationalism, social conservatism, demographic engineering, speech controls, and limited immigration. All things typically associated with the political tendencies you are criticizing.…

Go back and re-read my comments. I never specifically said that xenophobia was sinking the West. That's something that you said, not me.

The West is sinking due to many causes, and is predictably turning to xenophobia as a distraction. It's a typical far-right playbook: find some minority group to blame all the country's troubles on, instead of looking at the real reasons.

China doesn't need to amp up xenophobia because it just doesn't have a lot of immigrants in its borders in the first place, and it isn't sinking (yet) compared to the West, and seems to be generally outperforming them for now. In fact, they can distract people from the problems caused by their government's bad policies by blaming "the West" instead.

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