Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who do we lobby to get this removed from the auditors checklists? This is a solvable problem but it’s political. And if we don’t solve it personal computing is at risk.
Start by calling (or visiting the area office of) your senator and congressman. If you are reasonably articulate, they engage and listen. Doesn't matter if the listener is not a techie; they will ask questions around policy and why it affects constituents. This is 1000x more useful than online petitions or other passive stuff. Politicians know that one person to have taken the effort to do this, means 1000 others are…
GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
601–610 of 967 posts
Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
#602Earlier quoted context omitted.
My bank has always had hardware attestation, but it was their hardware that was being attested. Customers get it loaned when signing up I have no problem with a device that they trust being used for transaction approval, but that device shouldn't also be the device I use for my daily life and do all sorts of private things on. We should want to be able to inspect that one
I agree completely, except looking at my 2fa app I'd need 20 physical tokens, so we actually need a super-duper-yubikey
Still, I'm plenty okay with my phone as a second factor for my laptop and vice versa for nearly all services. The rest is about tying things to a government identity (bank cares only if it's me who's authorising the transaction; government cares only if it's me who's requesting a student loan) and can be done with the chip that's already in my identity document and a single 20€ nfc chip reader or by using a phone as nfc reader
Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
#603Does anyone have a good grasp of the differences between GOS and /e/OS? I'm buying a Fairphone soon and was wondering what both are like
A common misconception is that people believe GrapheneOS is less usable than much less private and far less secure options but it's the other way around. GrapheneOS provides nearly perfect app compatibility when taking into account the per-app exploit protection compatibility toggle and sandboxed Google Play. Nearly the only apps not working on GrapheneOS are ones banning any alternate OS and a larger number of those work on GrapheneOS than elsewhere due to a subset specifically permitting GrapheneOS due to far higher rather than weaker security. Apps have legitimate reasons for being concerned about the poor security of many alternate operating systems but they're wrongly grouping it all together as if GrapheneOS.
/e/ lags weeks, months and even years behind on providing updates for drivers, firmware, the Linux kernel and more. They miss a large portion of the monthly Android security bulletins which are a limited subset of the patches in the first place but then claim to provide the latest patch level despite many of the required patches being missing.
/e/ has a supposedly private speech-to-text sends data to OpenAI and their own servers without obtaining explicit user consent to share sensitive data with a third party.
https://community.e.foundation/t/voice-to-text-feature-using...
They say the data is anonymized based on passing it through their own servers before OpenAI but OpenAI is receiving all of the user speech data under their usual terms of service enabling them to store and leverage it.
Fairphone lags significantly behind on OS updates and patches with only a small subset of what should be provided being shipped. Their hardware omits important security protections required by GrapheneOS which it uses to protect users against widespread commercial exploit tools. Fairphone doesn't provide upstream Linux kernel updates in practice which is a massive omission for their updates. Fairphone 4 has an end-of-life 4.19 kernel branch and the Fairphone 5 despite not being very old already has an end-of-life 5.4 kernel branch. Neither was providing the LTS revisions prior to end-of-life so from their perspective nothing really changed but it means it's a huge task for an alternative OS to provide basic updates since they'd need to port everything to a newer kernel branch.
/e/ does not provide similar privacy features to GrapheneOS such as Contact Scopes, Storage Scopes, Sensors toggle and much more. It focuses on bundling things which can be provided with apps such as RethinkDNS on GrapheneOS with a higher quality implementation. GrapheneOS delegates as much as it can to apps while focused on the core OS. If a feature can be done better with an open source app, we'd rather leave it up to that app and many provide privacy and security protections which apps cannot. For the most part, apps can't improve OS privacy and security. Enumerating badness via blocklists which cannot block anything that's dual purpose functionality is also a very weak approach to privacy which is increasingly less useful. The most privacy invasive behavior of apps is nearly all done through their own services which also provide their functionality. Among other things, /e/ uses this system for labeling app tracking and permissions which is incorrect and misleading as shown by this example:
https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/en/reports/com.faceboo...
Facebook clearly doesn't have no tracking but rather this system only detects a small number of specific third party libraries they've decided are trackers. Those choices are often very questionable such as portraying even opt-in crash reporting as tracking because it used a third party library on their list. Meanwhile, Facebook's lite app supposedly has no trackers. The permissions list is thoroughly inaccurate and not how Android permissions work. The core permissions are opt-in with apps having to request them so listing those as if they're granted on install and mandatory due to being possible to grant is incorrect. Most of the rest have special access toggles which are opt-in for the sensitive ones or other toggles such as the battery optimization mode where Restricted stops apps starting themselves and delays those things until it's run by another app or the user.
Privacy requires providing privacy patches and strong privacy protections. It also depends on security which means providing security patches and strong security protections. GrapheneOS is heavily focused on all of that rather than simply treating not having bundled Google apps and services as meaning a private OS. There are also worse things for privacy than Google apps and services. /e/ sending speech data to OpenAI vs. Apple doing the processing locally as we've it implemented for GrapheneOS is a good example. Google at least has partial local speech-to-text support and a better privacy policy than OpenAI for the cloud portion. Avoiding Google apps/services is not the same thing as providing strong privacy.
Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
#604Earlier quoted context omitted.
Needing to use a verified boot chain with keys that the bank trusts is essentially the same as using the authenticator device from said bank, except this one costs 100€ or more, has a microphone and camera built in, and you use it for private messages as well. That's not a future I want to live in We have secure hardware already, it's called a smartcard and is what you find in all bank cards, SIM cards, authenticator…
Needing to use a verified boot chain with keys that the bank trusts is essentially the same as using the authenticator device from said bank, It's not, because even though the authenticator is secure, you are entering the auth codes in a browser in general purpose desktop OS with (if you use Windows or desktop Linux) little to no sandboxing outside the browser. You are one malware app (or NodeJS package for tech user…
It doesn't matter what device relays the code I typed over or otherwise transmits the approval through untrusted networks to the server
> The sad reality is that phones (and some tablets) are the only relatively secure computing environments that we have
My bank('s authenticator hardware) begs to differ
Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
#605I personally tend to own two Phones. One all-day carry GrapheneOS device (Pixel 8) and an older WiFi and at home only iPhone for all payment and ensurance stuff. This is inconvenient in some ways, but at least it is sort of privacy as good as it gets while still being able to run official apps when I need them at home. To de-google the phone, I use F-Droid as primary App store, Aurora as fallback for non-f-droid Apps…
It's pretty excellent! The improved integration with OpenStreetMaps to provide edits/additions is great. I made my first contribution to OSM via CoMaps.
Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
#606Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know which banks you are using but in my case I work with five Spanish banks and I can do everything from their websites, no app required. Yes, they try to push you to use their app, some tried to activate mobile 2fa for me when this psd2 thing became mandatory but I always told them their app doesn't work on my phone (which is true) and they offered me alternate methods like sms.
Can you access their websites without the need to confirm 'who you are' with their app? In my case, not anymore. My bank used to have other options but it has made mandatory the use of their app.
Yes, none of them required me to use the app a single time. In fact, for all the banks I work with, I always identified myself at a local office when opening the account for the first time, the last one less than a year ago. And all of them allow me to operate in the website without the need of an app (actually I could never use any banking app as my telephone lacks Google Play).
Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
#607I've used GrapheneOS on a Pixel 3a, 5, 8 and 10 Pro so far and it's worked really well. I couldn't imagine going back. The only things I'm missing (which don't exist in other OS'es either): - Being able to configure contact scopes in such a way that the app in question only gets access to the phone numbers of the contacts belonging to the label I specified, e.g. "WhatsApp", nothing more. Yes, one can of course add co…
Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
#608Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's quite secure against casual attacks, but a proprietary mobile platform has inherent issues wrt. withstanding even mildly sophisticated attackers, including mercenary spyware services. You still have a huge attack surface from all sorts of proprietary firmware blobs and hardware IP blocks that are running directly on the SoC. It's not clear that it's really worth even trying to secure it as opposed to just treati…
well, a concerted attack could easily subvert the baseband if you have a few million dollars and the correct letterhead or private contacts. GrapheneOS really wants the software in the phone to not pwn the phone. This is good. Its a different, and much more difficult problem to secure the connection to the telco, and the larger internet, because the transport is attacker controlled. Think of it this way: Say you use…
In theory Pixel phones have IOMMU and GrapheneOS is using them, so even a compromised baseband doesn't result unrestricted access to the system.
Re: GrapheneOS – Break Free from Google and Apple
#609Does anyone have a good grasp of the differences between GOS and /e/OS? I'm buying a Fairphone soon and was wondering what both are like
GrapheneOS claims to be a lot more secure, having additional hardening. See https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm - keep in mind that it is not an independent comparison, the Graphene guys directly feed what this table is supposed to say in the issue tracker, https://github.com/eylenburg/eylenburg.github.io/issues/ . But it gives a good representation of the state of the ROMs according to Graphene. In re…
GrapheneOS has been heavily analyzed by privacy and security experts who say it provides far better privacy and security. There's a large amount of real world evidence showing GrapheneOS very successfully defends against commercial exploits tools. /e/ has been heavily criticized for having poor privacy and atrocious security by many experts. /e/ doesn't keep up with basic privacy/security patches and misses many important standard protections.
> keep in mind that it is not an independent comparison
That's not true. It's an independent comparison and the site compares a lot of other software. Contributors to many of the projects compared by it submit issues to it which doesn't many it not an independent comparison.
> In regular use, main difference will be that /e/OS comes with access to the alternative cloud service that project provides.
GrapheneOS users have many cloud services available including suites from Proton and others. Murena services have poor privacy and security overall due to neglecting server security, updates and more. Their speech-to-text service being a thin wrapper around OpenAI sending this sensitive user data to them rather than doing it locally as our SpeechServices app does similarly to Apple (even Google has that as an option):
https://community.e.foundation/t/voice-to-text-feature-using...
> It uses the default FOSS solution microG for google api compatibility
Their approach with microG gives highly privileged access to Google apps/services by default. GrapheneOS doesn't include sandboxed Google Play by default and they're installed as regular apps. microG doesn't change the fact that the apps are using closed source Google libraries, which are still present with microG and have strictly more access to user data on /e/ than GrapheneOS with sandboxed Google Play. Sandboxed Google Play is an entirely opt-in feature people need to install. /e/ has microG set up where it downloads closed source Google Play components it runs with privileged access as the default.
> /e/OS sets on AppLounge to install and upgrade both play store or F-Droid apps
This is a strange merger of Aurora Store, F-Droid and more. It's very misleading and confusing for users.
> /e/OS is also not my favorite since it feels like it is developing slowly, having had issues with outdated software versions - though it does work well in practice. Have a look at iode for an alternative.
Neither /e/ or iodéOS keeps up with updates to Android, Chromium, firmware, drivers or the Linux kernel. Both mislead users with an inaccurate Android security patch level. iodéOS lags far less behind /e/ and doesn't have nearly as many privacy violating services and added privacy/security flaws but neither is a privacy or security hardened OS. Neither keeps the privacy or security of standard AOSP intact.