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I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#601

Post by wkat4242 »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #589
wkat4242 wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah I didn't know that one. I do know Logitech has some ultra-thin ones too though. Very good keyboards too. They'd do nice in a laptop as well. I'd very gladly sacrifice thinness for a decent keyboard. The Thinkpads had an OK compromise for a while but since the Thinkpad T14s gen2 or so they have been horrible as well. My old T490s was still serviceable.

One space that I don't think I've seen explored is building a laptop around a tiny, ultra-low-power passively cooled SoC board that can easily fit beside the keyboard instead of under it in a 12"-16" chassis and saves space that'd otherwise need to be dedicated to cooling. That'd buy a substantial amount of Z-budget for a quality keyboard without blowing up chassis thickness. Naturally this laptop wouldn't be suited…

We're kinda there already. Most recent laptops I've seen have a tiny motherboard not even taking up the whole width of the device. Under the keyboard there's usually the battery.

Don't forget a significant part of the weight has to be towards the front edge so you can tilt the screen back without flipping the whole laptop. Some of my cheaper atom based laptops (with tiny motherboard and batteries) even have a metal bar in there for that purpose.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#602

Post by kassner »

makeitdouble wrote: post #594
kassner wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends. At least on $dayjob’s stack (webdev/Go) both are interchangeable and I’m fine using either. Ofc they aren’t the same thing, but depending on your task and constraints, both a MacBook or a Framework can attend your needs. I can agree with you that they don’t have the same position, but users are going to see a Framework laptop on mainstream media and are going to compare options. A few might try ou…

Yes. I think jobs where any laptop would do will get better ROI from the most run of the mill machine, whichever it is. Back in the day it was the Dell XPS and Thinkpad lines, right now I see the MBA and Surface added to those. Economies of scale just work that way, and these machine will be aimed at perfectly doing the 20% that cover 80% of the requirements, Pareto style. Does Framework get mainstream media treatmen…

> Does Framework get mainstream media treatment?

I automatically bundle Linus Tech Tips into mainstream, mainly because how much people with no hands-on experience (i.e.: bring their laptops to a shopping center’s IT shop to upgrade RAM/SSD) around me watch it. I hope that eventually they are encouraged enough to try stuff on their own, and if they are in that mindset, framework is the best brand they can buy.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#603

Post by cosmic_cheese »

wkat4242 wrote: post #601
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One space that I don't think I've seen explored is building a laptop around a tiny, ultra-low-power passively cooled SoC board that can easily fit beside the keyboard instead of under it in a 12"-16" chassis and saves space that'd otherwise need to be dedicated to cooling. That'd buy a substantial amount of Z-budget for a quality keyboard without blowing up chassis thickness. Naturally this laptop wouldn't be suited…

We're kinda there already. Most recent laptops I've seen have a tiny motherboard not even taking up the whole width of the device. Under the keyboard there's usually the battery. Don't forget a significant part of the weight has to be towards the front edge so you can tilt the screen back without flipping the whole laptop. Some of my cheaper atom based laptops (with tiny motherboard and batteries) even have a metal b…

Right, but my idea was to do something like shove the mainboard up into the bezel above the keyboard and battery into the palm rest, with nothing sitting under the keyboard except maybe ribbon cables. That’d get you a laptop with a thickness of under an inch that still has a keyboard that’s not compromised and keeps weight shifted to the front. It’d simplify repairs to some degree too since there’d be very little stacking.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#604

Post by hulitu »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

> I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience

This mindset is pretty new. No, i don't want to pay for "the ability to repair or upgrade my machine".

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#605

Post by pkphilip »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #499
pkphilip wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I'm generous, the extra flexibility in a Framework would save me $200 every 5-8 years. Which leaves me in the hole, further if I'm less generous. I think this statement is heavily underestimating the value of a repairable /user serviceable computer. The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is the same as the value proposition for open source for software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to ma…

> The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is the same as the value proposition for open source for software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make the changes you want to make IF you want to make them. This is true to an extent, but I think that's greatly overselling it when phrased that way. 90% of my customization is either during the initial purchase, or it's a RAM/drive upgrade, and I don't…

That is my point. Most users - such as yourself, will not make use of the freedom a Framework device provides but there are others who will directly benefit from it. And that freedom is essential.

To use a vehicle analogy - it is the same as getting a car which has parts you can opt to change/replace. Most people may not even be able to do an oil change but this "feature" is nonetheless a VERY important one to have.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#606

Post by RickyLahey »

beeflet wrote: post #520
RickyLahey wrote: post #77

my tip to people who don't like mac os. buy a macbook pro, disable System Integrity Protection (SIP), gut the OS, live in the terminal and browser. works way better than linux (10h+ battery life, SoC with a lot of memory) and you will barely notice that you're on mac os. It's not windows. there will be no forced updates and surprises.

Does this hack give me access to the source code?

no. but it gives you access to good hardware and software that works well on it. the only combination of this kind.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#607

Post by RickyLahey »

grimblee wrote: post #115
RickyLahey wrote: post #77

my tip to people who don't like mac os. buy a macbook pro, disable System Integrity Protection (SIP), gut the OS, live in the terminal and browser. works way better than linux (10h+ battery life, SoC with a lot of memory) and you will barely notice that you're on mac os. It's not windows. there will be no forced updates and surprises.

I hate the fact the keyboard is non-standard, the mental hoop to jump between my normal keyboard on my desktop and the macbook pro one is a no-go. I told my job I prefered an old lenovo thinkpad than this dumb, vendor-locked, thing.

i hear you but the latency between the cpu and ram, the battery life, and the quality of software is way worth a few weird buttons to me. everything has downsides. Windows is completely ridiculous, and between Linux and Mac OS, well, I think it depends on your use case.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#608

Post by piskov »

tourmalinetaco wrote: post #598
piskov wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The things you are pointing out are 6+ years old. Cooling is the reason intel was ditched: intel promised for years new nodes, and apple designed for new power consumption that never came. You don’t fuck with apple this way unpunished. That’s why nvidia was ditched circa 2013 to never come back. — As for something-gate: engineering is hard, especially on this scale. Still they were (and are) the best option overall.…

They’re not. The MacBook Air can easily thermal throttle under any sustained load because they went with a fanless design. It may work for casual usage, but it also negates at least half of your claims. Screen cracking was ~4 years ago for M1 laptops, which also included Apple making screen repairs far more difficult, exacerbating the problems they’re currently being sued over. They did separate NAND from the rest of…

I don’t know what “fragile” things you are talking about.

I have both air m1 and 16 m1 pro.

Neither me nor anyone I know have issues with these laptops.

Of course air is for your average Joe. And even then I transcode videos on air.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#609

Post by Dylan16807 »

pkphilip wrote: post #605
Dylan16807 wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The value proposition of user serviceable equipment is the same as the value proposition for open source for software. It gives you the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make the changes you want to make IF you want to make them. This is true to an extent, but I think that's greatly overselling it when phrased that way. 90% of my customization is either during the initial purchase, or it's a RAM/drive upgrade, and I don't…

That is my point. Most users - such as yourself, will not make use of the freedom a Framework device provides but there are others who will directly benefit from it. And that freedom is essential. To use a vehicle analogy - it is the same as getting a car which has parts you can opt to change/replace. Most people may not even be able to do an oil change but this "feature" is nonetheless a VERY important one to have.

My point was that even for people that benefit, the benefit is greatly reduced.

Let's dig in to why it's useful to be able to replace parts on a car. If we analogize the extra flexibility of the Framework to being able to replace all these parts in the engine bay, that sounds really cool, until you realize there are no third party options for the core components and Framework only makes a couple versions. It's still useful in a few circumstances, but it's not this massive unlock of freedom. You can't have a fully customized engine, and the best way to get an engine tailored to your tastes is to abandon the weak after-the-fact customization and go find something that you like from the start.

Even to a user that really values freedom, Framework doesn't properly deliver at this point in time. The Framework freedom is so restricted that in most ways you get more freedom by considering all the non-soldered-RAM laptops from other brands as valid options too.

Edit: And I don't mean this as an indictment of their small company, they're trying, but right now the impact is limited in many ways.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#610

Post by Dylan16807 »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #578
dngray wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting the CAMM2 ram gets about the same performance.

Framework has stated that it asked AMD if there were any way to make the RAM on Ryzen AI Max APUs (like used in the Framework Desktop) socketed, and AMD said no due to the stability hit that’d entail — the physical distance from the CPU that’d be required with RAM sockets reduces signal integrity too much for it to function.

Which is weird. The entire point of [LP]CAMM[2] is to be able to make that work.

The Framework desktop clocks the memory at 8000MHz. That's well within the limits of the interface. Something is flawed or omitted in those CPUs if they can't handle it.

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