Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#601

Post by zug_zug » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:45 PM UTC

reissbaker wrote: post #277

zug_zug wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're arguing if the US declared war on Venezuela, that Venezuela could just use a drone to blow up the US president and that's just how war should work from now on? Because it's only a matter of years until drones get small and stealthy enough that nobody is safe; exploding pagers are a clear first step in this direction.

While I'm only adding to the choir of people telling you "of course," since I'm directly the person you're responding to it still feels worth saying: yes, of course, if America and Venezuela went to war, it's completely legal for Venezuela to attempt to kill the U.S. President. As an American, I certainly hope they would fail. But do I think it's legal? Yes: it's a targeted strike on the leader of an enemy country th…

Well you need to actually think about what you're saying here. Suppose for example China/Israel/whoever is the first to invent really, really great drones (like the size of a bird or even a bumblebee) that are lethal.

So then China could, at any point, call up the US president and say "Look there's a drone in the room with you right now. Shut down all your nuclear facilities or I hereby declare war and you're dead within 10 seconds." Then failing that they could hit the VP next, Secretary of state, etc etc.

Point being the idea of sticking with WW2 "rules" with current and future technology is laughably implausible.

And I guarantee you the citizens of Israel would NOT think it's perfectly legit, legal, and fair if Netenyahu got assassinated with a drone along with his military commanders.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#602

Post by ada1981 » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:48 PM UTC

neoromantique wrote: post #368

ada1981 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say 42 targets. Per the report: 42 dead, 12 of which were civilians. It follows that 30 were considered Hezbollah.

>I didn't say 42 targets. You quite literally did.

What? It's possible I had a previous typo, but please show me where I said that.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#603

Post by busterarm » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:49 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #507

busterarm wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hezbollah is designated as a terrorist organization by: Argentina Australia Austria Bahrain Canada Colombia Czech Republic Ecuador Estonia European Union France Germany Gulf Cooperation Council Guatemala Honduras Israel Kosovo Lithuania Netherlands New Zealand Paraguay Serbia Slovakia United Arab Emirates United Kingdom United States but calling them terrorists is biased?

They're military and political personnel. Terrorist designation is a made up political thing as Trump has made obvious. Hezbollah has done nothing that Israel hasn't also done.

Military personal wear uniforms, are clearly identifiable in their operations & movements and have standards of behavior in line with jus ad bellum & jus in bello.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#604

Post by ada1981 » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:51 PM UTC

tguvot wrote: post #170

ada1981 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the IDF, a 28.6% civilian death rate is actually quite good. Their own classified data reveals an 83% civilian casualty rate in Gaza—nearly three times worse. The Lebanon pager attack: 12 civilians (including 2 children) killed out of 42 total deaths (28.6% civilian casualty rate). Gaza genocide: Leaked IDF intelligence documents show 8,900 militants killed out of 53,000 total deaths as of May 2025 (83% civilian…

there is no classified idf data of 83% civilian casualty rate. there is data that idf can identify by name 17% of casualties as hamas/etc member. if there are 10 people with machine guns and rpg and you blow them up with a bomb, they don't become civilians just because you don't know their names

The IDF did not dispute this, so unclear why you are.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#605

Post by ada1981 » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:52 PM UTC

xvedejas wrote: post #318

ada1981 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the IDF, a 28.6% civilian death rate is actually quite good. Their own classified data reveals an 83% civilian casualty rate in Gaza—nearly three times worse. The Lebanon pager attack: 12 civilians (including 2 children) killed out of 42 total deaths (28.6% civilian casualty rate). Gaza genocide: Leaked IDF intelligence documents show 8,900 militants killed out of 53,000 total deaths as of May 2025 (83% civilian…

You understate your point: the 83% rate is much, much more than 3x worse. To kill 100 intended targets, a 28.6% civilian death rate means you'll need to kill `N / (100 + N) = 0.286` (N = 40.06) civilians. With an 83% civilian death rate, to kill 100 intended targets, you need to kill `N / (100 + N) = 0.83` (N = 488) civilians. It is about 12x worse to have an 83% civilian death rate compared to a 28.6% rate.

Thank you for that correction.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#606

Post by ada1981 » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:53 PM UTC

tguvot wrote: post #170

ada1981 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the IDF, a 28.6% civilian death rate is actually quite good. Their own classified data reveals an 83% civilian casualty rate in Gaza—nearly three times worse. The Lebanon pager attack: 12 civilians (including 2 children) killed out of 42 total deaths (28.6% civilian casualty rate). Gaza genocide: Leaked IDF intelligence documents show 8,900 militants killed out of 53,000 total deaths as of May 2025 (83% civilian…

there is no classified idf data of 83% civilian casualty rate. there is data that idf can identify by name 17% of casualties as hamas/etc member. if there are 10 people with machine guns and rpg and you blow them up with a bomb, they don't become civilians just because you don't know their names

Seems some say even the named may be fabricated:

>> Sources within the Israeli intelligence community cited in the report raised concerns about how deaths were categorized, with one source claiming people were sometimes "promoted to the rank of terrorist after their death" in the database. <<

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#607

Post by tennysont » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:54 PM UTC

verteu wrote: post #509

N19PEDL2 wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have questions about the concept of legality in a war like the one between Hamas/Hezbollah and Israel. The idea that in a war there can be legal and illegal actions established by international treaties to protect civilians as much as possible can only work if two (or more) legitimate states are fighting each other, with leaders who can be held accountable for the orders they give. But does it still make sense to t…

Yes, humanitarian law explicitly applies to enemies who do not, themselves, follow it. It's called [non]-reciprocity: "The obligation to respect and ensure respect for international humanitarian law does not depend on reciprocity" https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule140 Nations who break international law frequently spread misconceptions about this.

My understanding is that this non-reciprocity is why international law often feels so permissive of seemingly bad actions. It generally aims to forbid only strategies that are the highly destructive and non-effective at winning wars. The idea is that such actions are not necessary in warfare in any circumstance, rather than a coordinated and mutual choice to leave effective strategies on the proverbial table.

This non-reciprocity is also why many such laws come with large conditional statements. For example, hospitals are typically illegal targets. However, you cannot label a military outpost a hospital as a loophole. There is a gray area in between, where the law is generally more permissive than a layperson might expect.

It is unclear if these laws accomplish this goal in all circumstances. A smaller, modern army attempting to hide might not be able to find non-civilian concealment (e.g., the jungle in the Vietnam war), and there is probably a conversation about the (unfortunate) effectiveness of inflecting civilian damage on an enemy's will to fight and economic output. However, the above is my best understanding of what international law sets out to do.

Disclaimer: I asked AI to evaluate the above comment before posting, and it made the following (paraphrased) criticisms that you might want to consider:

- The primary purpose of IHL (international humanitarian law) is to distinguish civilian from military, not to only ban what doesn't work. Hence, the banning of chemical weapons and landmines.

- The hospital example is better framed as a requirement to distinguish between a civilian hospital and a military target

- Non-reciprocity has the advantage of being simpler to obey (the legal analysis does not depend on the enemy's past actions)

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#608

Post by UltraSane » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:54 PM UTC

jackling wrote: post #573

UltraSane wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bomb in the pagers was so weak it could only harm someone directly holding it or if it was in a pocket.

There are videos where the surrounding people were hurt by the pagers, so, what's the explaination for that?

Please provide links to these videos because every video I saw showed only the person holding the pager getting hurt. They only had 6 grams of explosives.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#609

Post by UltraSane » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:56 PM UTC

jackling wrote: post #572

UltraSane wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel was able to monitor communications on the pagers for years and this allowed them to be quite certain of who they were targeting. "Footage from Reuters, Al Jazeera, AP, and local Lebanese reporters shows numerous injured civilians" How do you know they were civilians?

How do YOU know they were terrorist? What would you call people who were around the individual with that pagers?

They weren't terrorists they were Hezbollah members during a time when Hezbollah was shooting thousands of missiles at Israel that forced 60,000 people to evacuate. This made them fair targets. The pagers contained about grams of explosives which only injured the person holding it.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#610

Post by sporkxrocket » Thu, Dec 11, 2025, 4:56 PM UTC

inemesitaffia wrote: post #598

sporkxrocket wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has been attacking Palestinians and its neighbors since its inception. They are the aggressors and always have been. > It has achieved the best civilian-combatant death ratio of any urban war in modern history. False.

The Yom Kippur and Six Day war were instigated by Israel?

Yes. Those are downstream from The Balfour Agreement and Nakba.